Malcs Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Reading this thread there's one word that springs to my mind. "Jealousy" . Its always the case when someone pushes the boundaries and particularly when they have a lot of fun doing it, someone is always there waiting in the wings to bring them down on some minor point. What a boring world we'd live in if nobody ever challenged themselves and the rulebooks every so often! Kudos to the guys for doing this, hope they have a fantastic adventure and if they raise a load of dosh for charity too then that's a bonus! I'm jealous as hell of what they are doing but fully support them on this and whatever they attempt in the future! Nuff said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Reading this thread there's one word that springs to my mind. "Jealousy" . Its always the case when someone pushes the boundaries and particularly when they have a lot of fun doing it, someone is always there waiting in the wings to bring them down on some minor point. Sorry, I disagree. You have no idea what I have done with my life nor any knowledge of what is likely to make me jealous. Still, it is your prerogative to make baseless claims, just as it everyone else's to discuss a subject that has the potential to affect them, and not just minor points as you suggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frazer1981 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Why has there suddenly been so much speculation firstly, once the expedition has started and secondly, when the one man who could probably answer all the questions is away? Did nobody raise these issues when the whole thing was announced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcs Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Reading this thread there's one word that springs to my mind. "Jealousy" . Its always the case when someone pushes the boundaries and particularly when they have a lot of fun doing it, someone is always there waiting in the wings to bring them down on some minor point. Sorry, I disagree. You have no idea what I have done with my life nor any knowledge of what is likely to make me jealous. Still, it is your prerogative to make baseless claims, just as it everyone else's to discuss a subject that has the potential to affect them, and not just minor points as you suggest. Yawn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcs Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Why has there suddenly been so much speculation firstly, once the expedition has started and secondly, when the one man who could probably answer all the questions is away?Did nobody raise these issues when the whole thing was announced? I was wondering the same thing, same as the whole tip to tip malarkey, every man and their dog followed the progress of that trip and wished them well and as soon as it transpires that someone might actually make a bit of money from selling a few vids then all hell lets loose, they just peed off for not having the idea first I guess! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yawn! And there is a fine, considered, well thought out rebuttal and reply, that contributes enormously to knowledge on the subject and paramotoring in general! Plonk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcs Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yawn! And there is a fine, considered, well thought out rebuttal and reply, that contributes enormously to knowledge on the subject and paramotoring in general! Plonk! Nah Phil I just consider life is too short on this planet to be arsed to keep throwing rule books around and I choose to support and encourage the likes of Giles and Simon and anybody else with an innovative spirit to bring on new technology. We are alredy swamped enough in this country by bloody elf and safety laws in my humblest of opinions. My comment was not aimed at you but it caused you to react as it always does because it differs from your opinion and you don't feel I should be entitled to mine for some reason! I did not at any point say that YOU PHIL P are just jealous did I? Have a nice day! er! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 You make the comment that those who are critical are only jealous, but that of course should exclude me, and I should be telepathic enough to know that (and yes, I am critical if things aren't being done right). I have been made privy to information that leads me to believe that the Skycar was tested when it did not hold any form of certification or dispensation to allow it to do so. Also, it would seem that it was flown from a public beach in this condition, and was not carrying the registration that, at the time, had been issued to it by the CAA. It was flown by a pilot who doesn't hold any CAA recognised qualification, despite the category of craft remaining to be decided. Personally, I feel that these issues are not just the trivial H & S issues that you seem to think. Perhaps you would like to point out the sentence or paragraph in which I suggest that no-one else is entitled to their own opinion, or indeed their right to voice it here. The difference between me and you, is that I DO think you are entitled to your opinion and your right publicise it here, unlike YOU who thinks everyone should shut up on the subject. If you have a view, I will do my best to counter it with thought out argument, and be happy to read your responses rather than descending into personal abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcs Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 You make the comment that those who are critical are only jealous!quote]Where did I make that comment? So they alledgedly tested this machine on a british beach whilst no-one was looking, it was clearly deserted at the time, good for them, they needed to test it out before going on this mission, far more serious things to worry about in the world than that! Have you never broken the law in some way when nobody was looking? I'm sat in my office right now breaking the law by smoking in my place of work regardless of the fact that nobody else works here, go ahead and report me for it! Yes I do think it is a trivial H & S matter and yes I do think everyone should shut up and stop blathering on about it without knowing the full facts but I fully accept they won't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frazer1981 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 ). I have been made privy to information that leads me to believe that the Skycar was tested when it did not hold any form of certification.. I cant see how this can even be discussed on a public forum phil if your the only one who has seen this 'information'? Is there not any way you can share the information so that a proper discussion can be had? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I cant see how this can even be discussed on a public forum phil if your the only one who has seen this 'information'? Is there not any way you can share the information so that a proper discussion can be had? I don't feel at this time that I can Frazer. The only thing that I will say, is that if I have been misled, and my statement is incorrect, then I will issue the most humble apology I can, and withdraw from the forum without complaint should I be asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frazer1981 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well, maybe until that time i cant see how this can be discussed any further? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) I don't want to step between you guys but there does seem to be a bit of a misunderstanding running here, please forgive me if I got this wrong. My comment was not aimed at you I too didn't read Malcs comment as aimed at Phil, I saw it as general and perhaps even aimed elsewhere. I do think there are questions to be answered, but they are for the CAA IF the assertions are correct. I would bet my last dollar that they are well aware of most iif not all of the circumstances and here is the big one - they may well have had them answered fully already by the Skycar team. There does seem to be an assumption floating around here and there that these Skycar guys are hell bent on breaking the law and arrogant in the extreme in believng that they can get away with it. I find that one VERY difficult to swallow. The PJ/Skycar team don't strike me that way - happy to modify my view if proved wrong. We just don't know.... do we? Edited January 22, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well, maybe until that time i cant see how this can be discussed any further? Fair enough, although I think the only thing I've said that may be incorrect, is the status of certification at the time of the test flight. Everything else is in the public domain already. Wouldn't break my heart to see the thread locked, as personal abuse has long been a Usenet indicator that a thread is in it's death throws anyway, but that's for others to decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Happy to let it run, would love to see you guys meet in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Happy to let it run, would love to see you guys meet in the middle. Hey, I'm probably only grumpy 'cos I can't fly at the moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcs Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Nah let it run, I haven't given or received any personal abuse, I just see it differently thats all and take a little exception to being quoted something I haven't said. If what they have done is damaging to our sport then just about the worse thing we can do is shout about it in public, surely better to have a quiet word with those folk involved, no? We can speculate and 'what if' forever and a day. I note that some of those (nobody in particular) criticising this expedition / achievement do not seem to offer any positive comments at all which I feel is a bit sad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Fab Gents - with weather like this I am suprised we are not eating our young. Far better to come here and eat each other! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frazer1981 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I toatally agree, Its healthy debate and as has been said, one of the appeals of this sport is the freedom it brings so hopefully there is no wrong doing. Now, where can i get me a motor.......!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Malcs, when we individually privately go out to our fields and fly there are probably many minor rules that we knowingly or unknowingly infringe. It's not right but as long as we are trying to operate as sensibly and safely as we can then I can live with that. That is how paramotoring worked in this country for the years prior to legalisation (to answer Alan's question). What I can't live with is when people think it's ok to take that level of operation and try to stick it in the public eye. Multiply my annoyance tenfold if it transpires that there is financial gain for the individual as a result. If we seek fame then the operation must be squeaky clean from the moment it leaves the box. The problem we faced recently is that the lack of regard for the rulebook has only manifested itself after the commencement of the event. Even after the T2T I still did not make any comment about my discontent until the issue of putting it out to the public came up because until then it was still a relativey private jolly caper. As paramotor pilots we enjoy freedoms that might possibly not be fully understood if you haven't experienced other forms of aviation. The interesting thing about this debate is you will find that the people who are upset are largely the CAA/JAA/NPPL license holders who know full well how important it is to not risk this freedom, while those whose only experience of flying is by paramotor would seem to prefer to turn a blind eye. Consequently when things start getting unneccessarily stirred up at CAA level we should all be taking an interest. I would like to say 2 more things: Firstly, thankyou very much to Norman for permitting this to become a very open and honest debate for those that wish to contribute. Secondly, I would like to ensure that my standpoint is not viewed as direct criticism of any manufacturers product. In my opinion by far the most impressive achievement in our sport to date is the Mission Everest where Parajet and Paramania fully deserved monumental respect. I also think the Giles current development of Wankels could well be the future of gasoline powered paramotoring. My issues with aspects of the T2T and the Skycar project are purely related to the 'PR vs charity' element in the UK public eye and adherence the rules that still govern us despite deregulation. Consequently you will find that I have no interest in the planned T2T of Australia as whatever you get up to over there should have no effect on my future ability to operate out of my back garden in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I am sorry I really dont buy the whole "putting our sport in jeopardy" line, think about it, just about all those involved have either built a reputation or a livelyhood through paramotors, do you really think they would do anything that could potentially put more legalisation in the way and stunt the growth of paramotoring, they did not get where they are by being foolish, Giles is an astute businessman, I very much doubt he is in the habit of biting the hand that feeds him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 What I can't live with is when people think it's ok to take that level of operation and try to stick it in the public eye. Multiply my annoyance tenfold if it transpires that there is financial gain for the individual as a result. Thanks for your point about the thread Ian. As for paramotoring, light aviation and profit. Without profit no business exists of course - I take my hat off to anyone who tries to make a living out of his dream and as you well know, just about everyone who operates in this bearpit tries to cut the throat of their 'fellow' competitors. But that is by and by - why shouldn't PPG and GA be involved in PR or charity based enterprise where there is a profit element? T2T was for charity, the profit element came from a separate venture that produced a movie. The film company made the investment, not the charitable giving. Simon and the team took a significant amount of time out to fly that event, time they could have spent earning to feed their families. Just because PPG is your sport does that make it sacrosanct and lay down a requirement for it to be somehow above the earning of filthy lucre? You and I both know that a very chill wind is blowing outside our flight decks - this is sport AND commerce, lets not try and tie their hands in the name of our comfort zone during our time off. As paramotor pilots we enjoy freedoms that might possibly not be fully understood if you haven't experienced other forms of aviation. The interesting thing about this debate is you will find that the people who are upset are largely the CAA/JAA/NPPL license holders who know full well how important it is to not risk this freedom, while those whose only experience of flying is by paramotor would seem to prefer to turn a blind eye. Consequently when things start getting unnecessarily stirred up at CAA level we should all be taking an interest. Fair comment, it is anyone's right to get steamed up about anything they please, but why should anyone take any notice? But lets cut to the quick here - if there has been any breach of the law (ANO) as some people are quick to assert, then it is a matter for the CAA, not a lynch party from your local flying field. The CAA do not paint every pilot with the label 'drug smuggler' if someone is caught doing it. Why must we assume that if someone were to transgress rules they would change their mind and try and hang us all with restrictions? Are things really 'getting stirred up' at the CAA? Or are people getting stirred up and trying to legitimise their concerns by citing CAA activity? More importantly, why come here to express concern about something that is not a matter that PMC members have ANY control over? Simon is on the expedition as a member of the groundcrew. According to Mrs SW he may fly his paramotor during the expedition. To my knowledge he has no executive role in the expedition. Where is the problem? You refer to 'blind eyes' - turning a blind eye alludes to a Nelsonian decision. I am not aware that PPG pilots here or anywhere else are turning a 'blind eye' to illegal practice. Are people asserting that something illegal is happening within PPG? If someone has some shocking concrete information that they feel the PPG world should know all about, publish it. Parajet I am sure Parajet will be really made up to hear of your support for their efforts Ian, positive comments and support sometimes makes up for the hours and hours of solid graft towards a project's conclusion don't they? Consequently you will find that I have no interest in the planned T2T of Australia as whatever you get up to over there should have no effect on my future ability to operate out of my back garden in the UK. Thanks Ian, I took it from the lack of your mail in our inbox that you weren't exactly champing to go to Australia. I wonder why you mention it at all though I note your comment - My issues with aspects of the t2t and the Skycar project are purely related to the 'PR vs charity' element in the UK public eye and adherence the rules that still govern us despite deregulation? Can I refer you to answers above re PMC and CAA. You will be delighted to know that there is a movie being made during the Australia expedition and yes, there is a slim chance that it will make a profit. Quite how those who stand to benefit will live that down I don't know. Sackcloth and ashes, self birtching and a million Hail Mary's might soften the shame. We can only hope I suppose... Yes, there will also be a charitable element to Oz 2010 too, we think Servicemen's charities both in Australia and the UK will benefit. Probably SAFFA and the Australian equivalent but that has yet to be confirmed. Thanks for taking part in the debate Ian, 'always enjoy reading your thoughtful and well informed missives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Ladies & Gentlemen, At 8am today the Skycar took off from an airstrip in Spain. It flew at an altitude of about 1000 feet above ground level for 20 minutes. Both take off and landing were perfect. This was the first substantive flight and everything worked just as it should. I don't have all the details but the flight was legal. We'll have more details later. I also expect to have photos to post by this evening. You heard it here first. Stuart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Ladies & Gentlemen,At 8am today the Skycar took off from an airstrip in Spain. It flew at an altitude of about 1000 feet above ground level for 20 minutes. Both take off and landing were perfect. This was the first substantive flight and everything worked just as it should. I don't have all the details but the flight was legal. We'll have more details later. I also expect to have photos to post by this evening. You heard it here first. Stuart Congratulations on a successful, safe flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dean_barker Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I’m not trying to be negative with this post (except for a little bit right at the end) but I'm rather surprised to learn that "...the first substantive..." flight has happened whilst the expedition is actually underway. Since it is the SkyCar expedition I think it's safe to say (although it is of course open to debate) that the most significant aspect of this expedition is the fact that the car can actually fly. I know there are many other facets to its design and to the expedition as a whole but in my mind what really sets it apart from other buggies modified to run on bio-fuels (nothing spectacular) is the fact that it has a prop and you can attach an airfoil and fly. Given that flight is such a fundamental part of this expedition I think it's pretty damned ballsy of these guys to embark on the expedition without having performed any "substantive" flight testing. Personally I would like to see the flight envelope a little more well-defined before I strap myself in. To each his own I guess. The point I’m trying to make is actually that I think a fair deal of confusion and debate could have been avoided (most of this thread for example) if they refrained from calling this an “expedition” and instead referred to it as the SkyCar “flight test program”… which is what it seems to be. If they had done this the lack of classification or CoA or registration would probably not have come into question at all since I think most people would accept that they have specifically left UK airspace to test the craft in a more relaxed regulatory environment. [negativity] But, I guess that wouldn't have garnered much publicity... [/negativity] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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