Guest Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 "a new category of aircraft". Is it really Norman? What category is that then? I can't quite make out the required insignia on the wing in the beach images, do you know what they are? I noticed Gilo landed it on the beach in the film, what licence does one need to fly this magnificant machine, and where do I get one? Felius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Update I have been passed an update which informs me that the Skycar has had its status changed -it is now unregistered. Beyond that I won't comment as I am not sure what status the machine has acquired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 The last information I had wrt Skycar was just a before they set off through Simon. It looks as though my post was a little behind the times. It is clear from the press and a couple of texts that I have received that there been problems. These are obviously based around certification issues. As above, it is a new category of vehicle and the process of seeing it through is a delicate one that needs careful handling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMParamotors Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Now guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you need a Nppl /m or Nppl /a to fly that????????? its well over microlight weights.. Looks like fun to me... 50k is a lot.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I hope a PPL of any kind isn't required, because I don't think the planned pilots, Gilo included, hold one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMParamotors Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 MMMMM Thats interesting. i would of thought you need at least a nppl.. will look in to it,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I hope I am not speaking out of turn here but my understanding is that there is not yet a designated category of aircraft that this vehicle falls into. It's weight takes it clear of established cats. If this is indeed the case it may be necessary to create a new category and create conditions that are required to fly within it. These may well include licensing. I have not done detailed research here, busy with other stuff so please take my comments as discusson, not fact. The BMAA have been involved I believe and therefore may be able to enlighten us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frazer1981 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Im sure that all this would of been coveverd and that they would not of gone about this on a whim?..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Frazer, I think you can be sure of that at least. The detail will emerge later I am sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Frazer, I think you can be sure of that at least. The detail will emerge later I am sure. I don't see the signs of this at all Norman. A blaze of publicity followed by a news blackout. I am searching like crazy and finding nothing. The expeditions own website is almost silent. I would like to see this one succeed but so far I have the following questions for which I can find no answers: 1. The opening video of the car flying off the beach looks very much like a test flight in the UK to me. If so, where is its registration? What insurance was therefore in place and was the land owners permission sought? 2. There are 2 pilots listed on the team, Giles and Simon W. What CAA licensing is held by these two? 3. It's not a paramotor as it isn't foot-launchable. It's not SSDR as it is more than 115kg. It's not a microlight paratrike as it is more than 430kg. Therefore the very least it will require is a JAA/CAA PPL or full NPPL not a NPPL(M). 4. The CAA have just pulled the registration of this machine which prevents it being permitted to operate as a flying machine on a reciprocal basis prior to the boundary between Europe and Africa (at the earliest if at all). I am informed that the CAA are seriously hacked off about this. 5. At £50,000 for a machine that requires pilot licensing and is seriously limited in its useablity compared to other forms of aviation is there really a market? 6. Why is it only after the project is underway that the above is coming to light? Surely the sponsors must be livid. This may not be Paramotoring as we understand it but once again the public do not see the difference. If we are going to be assessed in the public eye then the i's and t's should have been squared away ages ago. Or is the need for PR considered above all else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hi Ian, I take it we are discussing this in the spirit of conversation and curiosity and not with our hands on our hips spouting righteous indignation? Good, I am glad we got that one squared away. Firstly the expedition. It is a Parajet thing. Inspired by Gilo's car and supported by Neil Laughton and their sponsors. It doesn't have anything to do with the PMC other than Simon's involvement which is at a support level as a ground troop. He is not involved in the flying as far as I am aware. Please don't take it that I am going sloping shoulders on this - I am not in any information loop and unaware of the day to day detail of what has happened since my last conversation with Simon before he departed. News I understand there was a policy of not getting involved in too much publicity after departure as tone of the regions they plan to transit has some security issue within it. Silence and surprise is expected to see them through the area. Intriguing yes, but wholly sensible I think... The Skycar Project I was asked at a late stage to get involved and liaise/take care of the certification side of Skycar. This was around October time with a launch date for January. I declined as I just didn't have the time nor frankly the expertise to deal with these technical specifics, particularly at what I considered to be such a late stage. Beyond this Ian, your guess is as good as mine, I will certainly not speculate as to what their problems may have involved though like you I have a fair idea. Cryptic as that may sound I consider it destructive idle chatter to speculate and snipe. They don't need that no matter what has or has not happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Cryptic as that may sound I consider it destructive idle chatter to speculate and snipe. They don't need that no matter what has or has not happened. Norman, whilst to some extent I agree that it may be destructive to speculate and snipe, I think that the broader issues of a 'paramotor' of sorts, potentially being involved in activities that, shall we say, have perhaps not been fully thought through, are legitimate subjects for discussion, albeit speculative. There are many who consider paramotoring to be on something of a knife edge as far as legislation goes, and activities of this sort, by some individuals with a very high profile within the paramotoring world, if they are done in anything less than a 100% legal way, are putting the rest of us in an even more precarious position. There seem to be a great number of aspects of this expedition, that as time goes on, appear to be questionable, and I think that just staying quiet on the subject, not discussing it, or by omission, condoning it, tends to tar us all with the same brush should anything go wrong. There is an implication in your posting that the group know there are security issues involved in some of the areas they hope to traverse, and they hope to circumnavigate the problems by simply ignoring them. Personally, I think if this is true, then things are not being done the right way, or with the interests of our sport at heart. At the risk of this thread being pulled, I think folks should be cautious putting any heads above the parapet. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Fair points Phil, speculate away to your hearts content. All I was saying (I think) was that I will not speculate and encourage others not to either as I think it destructive and frankly pointless. If it being done for entertainment and sport then fire away, but remember that you may be doing damage in the process. Paramotoring on a knife edge? I used to think it was, with some of the changes coming both from the BHPA and others I don't think that is so much the case anymore. Paramotoring is trying to ensure it has a clean act and I think that will help enormously if the SHTF somehow. Skycar Just a personal thing - I do find it tiresome that there seems to be a 'golden rain' falling from a high self righteous platform when anyone tries to do something innovative or ground breaking. I have no idea if the Skycar team have dropped clangers or if they are following a pre-ordained path mapped out by the CAA. Who knows? I certainly don't but what I am intent on doing is not hanging the poor sods before they return. Give them the space to get this fantastic project done, if they have made errors they will become public eventually and doubtless they will be learnt from. Just another opinion.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnorton Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I may be wrong, but I thought Neil Loughton had his pilots licence and that they were given a 24 hour 'test' flight cert by the CAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Neil does have both fixed wing and helicopter licenses as well as paraglider and paramotor experience. The CAA were (and still may be) considering an experimental aircraft license which would have given the team 24 hours of flying time in the UK and Europe but I believe it didn't arrive in time. More than that is speculation and we're unlikely to get answers until the end of next month when the team return. Stuart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Now stop me if I am getting this wrong, but surely the most sensible thing to do would be to wait for the expeditions return and then ask those involved for answers rather than trying to second geuss in their absence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Now stop me if I am getting this wrong, but surely the most sensible thing to do would be to wait for the expeditions return and then ask those involved for answers rather than trying to second geuss in their absence? "Doesent work like that" as he says on the advert Pete b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Now stop me if I am getting this wrong, but surely the most sensible thing to do would be to wait for the expeditions return and then ask those involved for answers rather than trying to second geuss in their absence? "Doesent work like that" as he says on the advert Pete b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathboy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 http://paramotorclub.org/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=688 Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs_sw Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 2. There are 2 pilots listed on the team, Giles and Simon W. I'd just like to clarify that Simon W is only there as a Paramotor pilot. The Skycar pilots are Gilo Cardozo and Neil Laughton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 And there speaks a woman who knows what she is talking about! Thanks for clarifying that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I take it we are discussing this in the spirit of conversation and curiosity and not with our hands on our hips spouting righteous indignation? Good, I am glad we got that one squared away. I think this should be properly discussed in public on a forum that (I would like to hope) is democratic and fair enough to not think it should erase any comment that does not conform with his masters voice. My hands are most firmly “on my hips ready to spout righteous indignation” if it transpires that ignorance by the few could have a knock on for the many. This sport has survived 20 years in this country by careful self-policing but that was before this current trend for publicity. I do understand that nobody in life gets things 100% right and pioneers need to push boundaries but ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law. A review of the key people on the Skycar website previously showed that the persons referenced with piloting skills were Giles Cardozo and Simon Westmore. I see that now Neil Loughtons profile has been amended retrospectively to add the qualifications that Stuart now mentions! I very much do hope this one can be resolved legitimately as it is a very interesting concept but once again there is a possibility that another PR exercise for a particular set of manufacturers and individuals can have an effect on my enjoyment of my hobby when it is thrust into the limelight without letting the majority decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 One of the problems with fora on the internet, is that, on the whole, we should discount democracy, with the best we can hope for being a benign dictatorship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 One of the problems with fora on the internet, is that, on the whole, we should discount democracy, Full democracy probably not, but a considered prognosis hopefully so, as we don't yet know the facts. Ian, just curious, where do you get 20 years for this sport from? I thought paramotoring was de-regulated in 1996, was there that much activity before then? Fly for fun, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Ian, I hope you didn't take offence at the hands on hips comment. None meant I do assure you but your stance did feel a little 'Pythonesque.' Just remake the point Ian, the Skycar project is a parajet thing, we don't have a feed on infromation from the event. Simon posts the odd image here and there but they will be out of touch completely soon. As for this forum, the only stuff that I moderate out is insulting or excessively abrasive material that has no value to the members. There is no big brother here and anything that is interesting or illuminating that comes my way (that will do no harm to anyone) gets posted. I feel a little loyalty to Parajet because I admire their 'go get it' ethic and their overwhelmingly positive nature. I am assuredly not blind to the limitations and sometime consequences of that outlook though. I am going to have to wait for the facts to emerge from the event - it is at the back of my mind for the moment anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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