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"He who teaches himself has a fool for a master."

Benjamin Franklin

Does anyone here need convincing? - it is worth reflection because our sport is one where you can legally ''DIY'. Someone may be reading who is considering that route and the YouTube clip demonstrates that 'they are out there'.

That quote might seem a little harsh taken in the round, but it's very close to the truth where it applies to skills that have inherent danger attached to them isn't it? How does it go - 'the bright learn from their mistakes, the wise from the mistakes of others'.

High quality instruction and well trained instructors are for the wise in my humble opinion. You save more than the injury recovery time that you may or may not sustain, you make faster progress and learn from the accumulated knowledge base that it has taken someone time to compile. Sometimes that comes for free but we all have to eat. Full time instructors get the exposure that amateurs seldom enjoy - they learn more and they learn it faster.

I hope this doesn't seem like a lecture, its just that the nature of instructing and instructors is much on my mind at the moment.

Let the fools teach themselves - Darwin would approve. :lol:

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I'm with you Norman, very wise words.

The cost of my training was worth every Euro. I learnt a lot I couldn't have picked up from other flyers, the internet or elsewhere.

Newbies, don't go for false economy, get trained then you'll really enjoy the flying :D

Alan

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I am still to buy my paramotor but as some of you know i fly paragliders and having had two flights with simon's parajet one on my Buzz z and one on his fusion. BUT when i do buy in the new year i will still be getting instruction!!! There is alot to learn and no matter how good you think you are..your never as good as you think!!!!

I think that you should not be allowed to go out and buy a machine over the counter untill you have the right pilot rating and should be made illegal if you fly without one!!!

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I think that you should not be allowed to go out and buy a machine over the counter untill you have the right pilot rating and should be made illegal if you fly without one!!!

Unfortunately this is completely at odds with the freedoms that we currently enjoy. You would effectively be bringing in compulsory licensing, a factor that loads (if not most) paramotorists find somewhat abhorrent. And I for one wouldn't be allowed to fly, because I don't have a signature on a piece of paper.

As for the guy in the video, he looked to be doing ok until he hit the trees, or is there something about his flying that I'm not spotting?

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as sport aviation goes we are in a very privilaged position, long may it continue, the more people who get correct tuition the less "incidents" there will be to attract the attention to us, wich can only be a good thing.

the fact that we are pretty much unregulated is a bit of a double edged sword, on one hand it gives us the freedom to fly without the red tape and expense that say something like general aviation incurs, but the flip side of that is that some of our less sensible members of society also have access wich can lead to problems, the one plus of compulsary liscening(and i am not saying thats the route I favour), is that only those truly dedicated and prepared to put in the the time effort and expense.

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Life is about chioces isn't it?

There may be those who are content to operate in a completely unregulated environment. That is fine and they are able to do that as things stand.

Someone coming to this adventurous sport from the outside with a wife, kids and other responsibilities who has no prior knowledge of aviation/paramotoring wants to know that they are joining a safe, well monitored system. They want to learn within a well structured system that they can see into, run by responsible people exercising proper care and attention with regard to their training and safety. That doesn't happen by accident.

Controlled riskes and choices, we all want them.

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not much different from the way i learned lol i see no harm in it at all good fun bit of excitement and somethin to talk about sayin that tho i didnt see the dangers i still dont flyin ten foot in the air end of day it will only glide down maybe in to a tree but its a bump not life threatenin, when i was learing i cliped in did a similar thing but backwards ended up in a tree but what a laugh , a guy runs of a hill with a glider flyin 20 ft and everyone says its daft and he needs tuition but we take off with a big engine and a spinnin prop on our backs and that is fine? it dont make sence to me

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I don't think you've quite got the point Leo.

Controlled risks is the pertinent quote - good one, by the way.

With training you will think about any possible rotor coming off the trees; you will have assesed the ground layout ahead in case the engine stops mid take off; you will know how to control the wing given changing conditions; ...need I go on?

Colliding with a tree is one thing, supposing you then fall to the ground. Very easy to break bones in those circumstances. I would rather have a controlled landing, thankyou, even if it is a bit untidy.

Safe flying everyone,

Alan

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yes i agree better to be safe but lets not kidd it is very dangerous regardless of training and the majority of accidents are with people who are experienced right or wrong, not from people learning, its an easy thing to learn and fairly cheap so there will be all kinds havin a go, i my self am very safe now with the motor i always have been because its lethal, i just think people fuss too much over the safety of the sport

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i just think people fuss too much over the safety of the sport

I would like you to talk to an ex Paragliding pilot that I know ex, becasue he no longer can! and one who's dad died in the sport a few years ago, and a mate who watched his best mate die from internal bleeding due to massive internal damage on the side of a hill. I think this may help you to see a little more clearly about the safety stuff abd the reasons why.

10-years ago this sport was WAY more dangerous than it is now, I agree... but.

We have to keep safety at the top of the priority list so that we can continue to improve and make the sport even safer. The moment we dont have this school of thought in the front of our minds accidents will happen.

Have fun yes.... and agreed, we dont need to harp on all the time about safety but when a safety issue comes up we 100% need to talk about it and spread the word. ITs for YOUR own good.

SW :D

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yes i agree but we are all responsible for our own safety and to be fair anythin we do can be dangerous done wrong and accidents do and will happen its the way the world is , i am 100 percent behind being safe and doin my best to stay safe but still accept that accidents happen to the best of us. i see accidents in cars most days as do a lot of you chaps but i dont jump on a forum and tell people what they did wrong. my point is this the barriers are there for the blind man

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An intersting one to ponder Leoibb,

Are we saying here that incidents and accidents (two sisters related) that happen to experienced pilots have no connection to training?

A proportion of accidents have their roots in training deficiencies, be it due to how they victims concerned are taught or their thinking is developed. Most accidents happen not from mishandling, but from misjudgement - at least that is the way it runs in the rest of aviation. I really don't see why that should change for paramotoring as the wings are well designed and at the lower end, they have benign handling qualities. Motors are generally reliable if treated correctly.

Talk to a gambler or an investment analyst, they will both tell you that good training improves your 'odds' and is well worth the 'punt'. Don't become a victim.

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Leoibb,

Just had a quick look at your posts to date and you seem to ask many many questions. Some of which i'm sure would have been covered/explained if you had professional instruction. This topical post was on the first page I clicked on (and copied verbatim);

i think or guess there is a lot of good instructors as there is good people at everythin but there is some garbage too and whether there good or bad would come down to a persons standards i guess, and i guess this goes for anythin we buy or have to pay for some pay for crap and get crap and are happy with it but others wouldnt touch it i would like an oportunity to maybe spend some time with a good instructor even if i know what i am being told it wouldnt hurt to be told again apparently we only retain so much info in any one go so it sure would not hurt to have a good instuctor at the side of me

Obviously, even with instruction, there can be accidents/incidents (that cannot be denied). But I am fairly sure that as a direct result of appropriate tuition, many more accidents have been avoided than actuated. Something your instructor tells you will affect your particular response and actions to a given situation.

Take driving in the snow for example, what do you do if you start slipping/sliding? Instinctivly you want to stamp on the brakes...but what should you do? How do you know that?

I personally am a great believer in hands on experience, I didn't go to university, I learnt my 'trade' hands on getting dirty. But, I was always under the wing of somebody. There was always somebody looking over my shoulder offering advice and instruction even when I thought I knew best. Obviously there comes a point when you don't need that safety blanket, but that doesn't stop you learning. I can't say that your instructor can teach you everything, in fact I don't believe that at all. But what they can do is give you that 'grounding' (no pun), that fundemental understanding of underlying principles. Something that only experience can give?!? Now my job is just twatting about with computers and hitec jiggerypokey stuff, not life threatening in the slightest...but I still had instruction and definitely wouldn't have it any other way.

With PPG and alike, it is not only your life at the hands of the Gods (or your inexperience), it's also innocent bystanders, mums, dads, wives, children...

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yes i know but i dont or am not fussed who trains the right way or who dont it aint my life so as i said there will always be people that dont take the training option and i personally dont have a problem with that, people please there selves as far as i am concerened , let me ask ? if a guy got a wing and learned to throw it around on the ground and went to an instructor he then got a machine on his back and up he went if the wing collapsed what could the instructor do on the ground , i dont think a lot so my thoughts on it is read enough books and you can competently do this without instruction we aint flyin rocket ships they are very very simple things, lets be fair a monkey could fly these and be realatively safe, we only get a licence for a car cos its law, i think if we didnt need one we would not go spendin 30 pound an hour to learn nope we would get our family or friend to teach us, this is my point untill it becomes a law to learn off a instructor then i think if they learn them selves good on them providin they only put themselves at risk i cant see a problem, and there is plenty enough info on the net and books to teach them

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Leo

I would rather be instructed what to do if a wing collapses, so I can be prepared for it, than findout for myself!

Frankly, I am happy if you want to take your life in your own hands and risk an accident but I agree with Ben that it is the innocent bystander that will get hurt and that is not good for the sport (or the bystander).

Eddie

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yes i know but i dont or am not fussed who trains the right way or who dont it aint my life

It's not your life until until somebodies prop flies off from 1000ft and lands on your head. It's not your life until somebody overshoots the field, glides across the road causing you to swerve and hit an oncoming truck.

let me ask ? if a guy got a wing and learned to throw it around on the ground and went to an instructor he then got a machine on his back and up he went if the wing collapsed what could the instructor do on the ground , i dont think a lot

I'm sure if the instructor was any good, he wouldn't just send you up after watching you 'throw' a wing around.

I haven't even got off the ground yet, but from my instructor/theory I know that if I was to suffer from a collapse (assymetric), initially i'd just wait (no brakes) and see if it reinflates and rectifies itself. If not, i'd apply some brake (I think...), but not too much to induce a stall?!? If it gets past this stage, i'll probably be spiralling (due to extra load on inflated side) then will have to weightshift or apply more break (i'd also probably be pooping my pants).

we only get a licence for a car cos its law

I think it's the law for a reason Leo.

At the end of the day, i'm not wanting to argue. People obviously have different views. But, if i'm puting my life and others at risk, i'd prefer to have professional instruction. Similarily, if my daughter is playing on a beach and there are pilots hovering around above, i'd hope they have had a level of safe training and they weren't going to land on or dice up my girl in the prop (I don't have a daughter, but if I did...)

(I hope to dear God my collapse recovery was right...:))

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Why is it you can go in to a shop and buy a paramotor and wing with no pilot rating or exp but you can't buy a paraglider... You cant turn up at a hill and throw your self off but you can starp your self in with a 30kg motor and fly..... if you turned up at one of the southern club's hills and had a few crappy launches i am sure some one would come over to ask you A) If you was a member B) If you had insurance C) where you learnt..... or if they thought you really were not up to standard they would ask you to go away "in a nice way" :wink: I really dont get it what is the difference its the same sport but with a motor.... I know there are many of you who have not had training and fly very well and i am sure there are people who have had training and are shockingly bad. I tought my self to kite surf over ten years ago.. there was no where to get instruction then so i had no choise. I must have spent over six months trying and trying... But now i have taught people to get up and surfing in a few days...

Even if you dont shell out good hard earned money on an instructor then get your self into a club and learn from the people around you.. I have found the people in these type of sports are all the same deep down "you do get some tos*ers" and will help out anyone at a drop of a hat...

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maybe the reason you couldnt fly of said hill is because it looks bad and comes down on the instructor there but no police in the land can stop you on common ground, the prop flyin off could happen to anyone and not a right lot you can do bout it, dont come back and say the instructor would teach you to tighten bolts lol . just curious why you think they dont regulate this? i have my own views on this but il save them for later

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I haven't even got off the ground yet, but from my instructor/theory I know that if I was to suffer from a collapse (assymetric), initially i'd just wait (no brakes) and see if it reinflates and rectifies itself. If not, i'd apply some brake (I think...), but not too much to induce a stall?!? If it gets past this stage, i'll probably be spiralling (due to extra load on inflated side) then will have to weightshift or apply more break (i'd also probably be pooping my pants).

lol and ya would do all this cos you been told to super cool no worries lol yes right

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anyway il leave it here there is dangers but not different to any others really provided common sence is used and if people fuss so much about the dangers then maye they ought to try another sport, a footballer dont go playin football worryin if he gets kicked he might not walk again a boxer dont go in the ring thinkin he might get damaged this is an easy safe sport in my opininon compared to some which you see all the time on tv and there are more dangers in them than there ever will be in this sport. a bit of guidance in anything you do is good but lets not turn it in to a lethal activity if you dont get propper training cos it isnt so

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Hi leoibb

I here what your saying but as youve said you havent got of the ground yet BUT YOUR INSTUCTOR/THEORY you know what to do if you had a collapse!!!! but if you didnt have an instuctor would you have known what to do and when?? I know alot of the first guys to paramotor didnt get instruction and fly ok BUT i bet most of them would advise some one new to the sport to get training.. I know what to do IF i get a collaspe but i dont know how i will react untill the time come's thats where an SIV course comes in!!!

You are correct a football player dont go out on the field and worry about snapping his acl etc he gets on with what he has to do but he has a coach (instructor) A boxer dont worry about getting put in a coma BUT he has a trainer (instuctor) i would never get into a ring with a boxer with out training. or being fit to do so.

I know what you are saying about common sence but some peole dont have any or are not aware of certain things that could poss put them or others in danger.

I kite surf and have my level two instructor rating from the IKO. There has been two big accidents in the past year from new comers to the sport not knowing what they were doing 1) a child was swept up in to a kite (size 14m ) and was dumped from about 20ft luckly the kid bounced pretty well and live to tell the tail with minor bumps 2) Was a young guy who put up a 12m kite in 30 knotts of wind and then was taken up the beach and smashed into the groine. He then had to be air lifted and was in an a coma for 3 weeks. I am not sure he is walking yet!!!!!

Now kite surfing might be being band at west witterings because of these two accidents... spoiling it for many others

I think that there should be a rating for paramotoring i think you should have to go to a school and show them you are copmitant to fly and know about air law even if you have been flying for years. I honestly think there will be one soon and i think its a good thing. It will keep instructor in work and help keep a safe enviroment for us to fly in... at least with in a club such as this or at the flag pole... :wink:

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Like I said, we could go round in circles mate :D

I just personally feel if I am puting other peoples lives at risk (and my own obviously) then i'd rather do it safely. I know there are thousands of people out there that have taught themselves and fine and dandy. I just feel safer myself knowing I have had the right training. Just like I will get insurance too. God forbid something does happen and somebody does get hurt, if it is my fault I could at least say I have had a degree of 'recognised' training and tried everything poosible to avert the incident and am insured and fully covered. Wouldn't really want to cause an accident and injure somebody, then tell them i've had no training, then tell them i'm not even insured.

Boxers and footballers aren't in danger of damaging or injuring other people really so can't see how you can compare. A boxer gets in the ring knowing that there is a risk, his opponent also knows this. They will beat the crap out of eachother no problem. But, they are in a ring, the spectators are at a safe distance and in no harms way. Imagine the fight spilling out of the ring, still pummeling eachother and spilling into the crowd. Fists still flying it catches a spectator in the chin and dislocates their jaw...think they'll sue or just laugh it off?

We are unregulated, but that doesn't (well it does I guess) give us carte blanch to do what we want, as that will just bring us even closer to regulation and losing the 'freedom' we have at present.

But like I said, just my view. Same as some, not of others.

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