craggrat Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi All I am looking at a buying a secondhand wing. I have asked the seller for test results, and to be honest i havent a clue what they mean. Below are the results, Are they good or bad. would you buy. Regards Craggrat at last inspection the wing had lines and braces tested, min strength for a + b's is 87kg and c = d 78kg, lines tested at 130 +. porosity top cenre 48,tip 74, bottom centre 285 with the minimum acceptable being 5. 2 small holes were sticky repired. Has flown about 6 hours since Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 what wing is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craggrat Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi Leoibb The wing is a Firebird Grid Large Its on Ebay. Ends today. I have spoke to the guy who is selling it and he say's it has been used for paramotoring. Looks good to me. But i am not as experianced as you guy's on here. So i would like your views on it. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... escription Regards Craggrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantheman Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 From info stored on the net the Firebird Grid is looks to be a DHV 1-2 paragliding wing but I think you can add motor trimmer risers to it, ask if this has been done ? If you are after a motoring wing then my money would be on a reflex wing designed for paramotoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Craggrat. Are you a big fella, like 16 stone. You'd be advised to have some experience before taking a 1-2 dhv wing too. I would get flying with a one first or perhaps you've done some hill flying? Here's a link for the tech stuff http://www.para2000.org/wings/index.html Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craggrat Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi Dave Just had my first flight. and looking for my own equipment now. but i have to go down the secondhand route, i cannot afford to buy new. My wieght is 97kg. the wing advertised has been used for paramotoring? that what it say's thats why i am asking you guy's if you have used one or wether you have the knowledge to say yes thats a goodun go get it. Cheers Craggrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Craggrat If you dont have any luck, I do have a Genie (large) made by Mike Campbell -Jones. It's a 2004 and done approx 50-60 hours. served me well for my first year. Bit quicker than most hill wings but not as fast as a Fully fledged modern Reflex, like the Revolution or Synthesis. It's yellow and blue and in the picture with the Walkerjet on ebay or you can look at it on that site I gave you the link to. I'm just over a 100 kgs so it would do you okay as I was enough on it when fully fueled. £400 would buy it I guess. If you want to know more about the Genie ask Pete B. He did hours under one Dave There's a couple of pics of the actual wing here http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=dragonp ... hic&page=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldeakin Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 as a beginner, when looking at wings, you should take into consideration (amongst other things such as instructor advise) the certification of the wing, it is not ideal because the tests are done for paragliding rather than paramotoring, but its the best we have at the moment. EN Certification A = Paragliders with maximum passive safety and extremely forgiving flying characteristics. Gliders with good resistance to departures from normal flight. Designed for all pilots including pilots under all levels of training. B = Paragliders with good passive safety and forgiving flying characteristics. Gliders with some resistance to departures from normal flight. Designed for all pilots including pilots under all levels of training. C = Paragliders with moderate passive safety and with potentially dynamic reactions to turbulence and pilot errors. Recovery to normal flight may require precise pilot input. Designed for pilots familiar with recovery techniques, who fly “actively” and regularly, and understand the implications of flying a glider with reduced passive safety. D = Paragliders with demanding flying characteristics and potentially violent reactions to turbulence and pilot errors. Recovery to normal flight requires precise pilot input. Designed for pilots well practised in recovery techniques, who fly very actively, have significant experience of flying in turbulent conditions, and who accept the implications of flying such a wing. DHV 1 = roughly Class A DHV 1-2 = roughly Class B According to this you should be looking for a DHV 1 or EN Class A DHV 1-2 or EN Class B I do not know of any reflex wing that has a DHV1 or EN A certification, some semi reflex wings such as the ITV Dakota have managed a EN B in some sizes. The reason that reflex wings are not considered to be suitable for beginners (according to the testing) is because they are too dynamic in collapses. This is where the argument starts where someone says, "reflex wings do not collapse, or are less likely to collapse, and the testing is not usefull for reflex wings" Paul D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Reminded me of this. www.paramotorclub.org/petition SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 what do you mean when you say too dynamic in callapses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldeakin Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 what do you mean when you say too dynamic in callapses? I mean they normally turn more and sometimes dive before recovering, this may just be a result of the fact that the wing is faster, or because the front of the wing is more heavily loaded. The EN testing measures how far a wing turns before recovering, when one side is collapsed, the result has a big effect on the final rating of the wing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 can get confusing in as that one would say stick to the dhv1 and then another says ohh no use a reflex wing for me i am only fussed about the safety of it the safer the better so which is the safest reflex or the dhv1 wings? ought to sart a poll on this it would be interesting various views Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Good Answer Paul! The problem lies with the extra loading in the foward section of a reflex wing in full reflex mode. The problem is... The current testing standard collapse the front of the wing to a point and measure its recovery (as above). This is because on a Paraglider you will get frontal and aysimetric colapses qute often as Mike Silv a PG and PPG pilot will tell you. (so is an important result to factor in) I have only had 1 collapse on a reflex wing under normal flight conditions that was an early Synth and although a little more 'dynamic' not a real problem. I have also had one or two collapses on a Revo in not good flying weather, rotor, high winds, rain.. and so on. and each time it popped out fast with no time for pilot input (Even though I did have the biggest collapse in my flying life (and cought it on the DVD) it also popped out VERY fast) so my point is.... Reflex wings are VERY unliely under normal flying conditions to collapse and indeed the very first tests could not get the front of the wings to collapse! So to fight to collapse it and then say it takes a little longer to recover is the descussion. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldeakin Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 It is recognised that reflex wings are must less likely to collapse and if flown in ideal conditions may never collapse. It seems to me that many instructors are recommending reflex wings to beginners for these reasons, they may be right, but I have doubts, my thinking is that all wings can collapse, so a pilot should not think that if he fly’s a reflex wing he will never experience a collapse, in fact beginners on their first solo flights are more likely to get themselves into situations were they will experience a collapse, whichever wing they are flying, so the most important factors are how the wing responds and how well a wing recovers (without any pilot input). Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi Leoibb, Any significant collapse is dynamic, but on wings that have reflex like the Revo or Synth in combination with a paramotor is very stable. The Tip to Tip team all flew Revo's in quite bad conditions and they all performed exceptionally well. On the other hand, when l began my PPG training with Simon l used my PG wing which is a large UP Makalu, which is quite dated now but l still fly it. it is classed as a low end DHV 1/2. On my first PPG flight l had a full frontal symetric deflation, but with a DHV 1/2 wing it was out again and flying smoothly in about 2 to 3 seconds. The only input needed was a touch on the brakes. In conclusion l now prefer a reflex wing as in the Synthesis for PPG and keep my Makalu and also an Ozone Electron for my freeflying. The opinion l get from other mainly free flyers is that if you only fly for 20 to 30 hours a year keep with a DHV 1 or 1/2. Yoiu may have read that the DHV go on to 2 and 2/3's then unclassified so you are well into a safer zone with a 1/2. Lastly these high end wings are really only for competition pilots who want that extra glide and speed to reach their goal . Hope this helps Regards Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craggrat Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 HI Is a reflex dhv 1 or 2. I agree with leoibb safer the better. There seem to be more info on paragliding wings than paramotor. Wing makers need to get a standard way of grading wings. being a newbie it would be easy to end up with the wrong wing and motor. craggrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi Cragrat, If my information is correct (the first part is) PG wings have all had an afnor or DHV certification before they are sold to pilots. This is also confirmed by the placard on the wing tip or centre of the wing. PPG wings on the other hand (this is the one l am not 100% sure of) but l have been told that there is no official certification. Saying that doesn't mean they are unsafe. So if you are under the wing of an instructor he will give you his best advice on what wing to purchase, which is on most occasions the wings he/she trains with. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi Cragrat,If my information is correct (the first part is) PG wings have all had an afnor or DHV certification before they are sold to pilots. This is also confirmed by the placard on the wing tip or centre of the wing. PPG wings on the other hand (this is the one l am not 100% sure of) but l have been told that there is no official certification. Saying that doesn't mean they are unsafe. So if you are under the wing of an instructor he will give you his best advice on what wing to purchase, which is on most occasions the wings he/she trains with. Mike http://www.paramotormag.com/articles/173/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craggrat Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi Just been on the Nova Wing site. http://www.nova-wings.com/russian/produ ... ofile.html They have a pilots profile. giving a idea of what the wing can be used for. Craggrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craggrat Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi outkast Read that report. they need a international standard of grading wings for paramotors. its very difficult for a newbie to the sport trying to find a wing. I have a good instructor who is helping me and giving me advise. but there should still be a standard. so you can say that wing is compatable with paramotor. and the pilots experiance. Thanks for the feed back craggrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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