wing tip steerer??

[macey2kk]

hi all,

i luckily escaped a severe situation today when during launch my wing tip steerer became detached from its velcro mount and got sucked into the prop on my parajet macro.

luckily i was under radio supervision and my guide heard / saw it go in and instructed me to abort launch steps away from take off... its seems im not destined to goa irborne just yet!

my question is.... am i correct in assuming its a wing tip steerer - revolution 30 wing... its a green line with a velcro pad attached to the risers which extends to one of the main lines but its not fixed... its slides up and down the line.

and furthermore -- as a beginner do i need it? -- i took the other one off for now - but havent flown, when the wing is on full trim do i need these to steer? my friend says the brakes go "rock hard" on full trim and hard to use??

thanks all.hope you can help! --- oh, and any suggestions on where to get a replacement quickly?

[Guest]

I have to ask,

Who is teaching you?

As an Instructors Pre Flight (on / for YOU) he / she should have picked up on the Loose tst control.

On the + side, he / she stopped the launch..

The Revo will respond to weight shift, without the need to tip steer at all BUT you should have it fitted and use it on flight 2 / 3 in my book.

Its more to do with pre flights I am sure of it.

Also, the tip steer is adjustable on the line, I found this usefull on the tip to tip to counter torque, but again as a pre flight its YOU the pilot and your instructors job to ensure that all is good before you try to take off.

All is well that ends well!

SW

[macey2kk]

when i say under instruction, i mean my bud was guiding me! -- it was definatly a pre flight check error by me one which i wont be missing again!,

you say they are adjustable as per the tip to tip, can you elaborate here as where they attach to the red line it is a sliding connection ie. it moves up and down the line automatically, its not like you can adjust it before flight to a fixed position?

or am i being stupid.... again!

[Guest]

They DO / CAN BE... moved up and or down the line, this is normally due to a poor or loose knot,

I made use of this by applying some perminant Tip steer by pulling the tip line through the TST line and then pulling it tight (on the ground)

You do need to make sure that the lines are at there longest and check the knot every so often, and the more you use it the tighter it gets.

Dudeks Tip stearing system works much better as a system but it does not work as well to steer the wing as the Revo (if that makes any sence at all LOLOL )

Tips on the Fusion, well thats just another level.

SW

[macey2kk]

They DO / CAN BE... moved up and or down the line, this is normally due to a poor or loose knot,

I made use of this by applying some perminant Tip steer by pulling the tip line through the TST line and then pulling it tight (on the ground)

You do need to make sure that the lines are at there longest and check the knot every so often, and the more you use it the tighter it gets.

Dudeks Tip stearing system works much better as a system but it does not work as well to steer the wing as the Revo (if that makes any sence at all LOLOL )

Tips on the Fusion, well thats just another level.

SW

ah i think my poor knowledge of the wing / theory let me down here, my tst line where it meets the redd tip line has always been loose from new ( wing only been out the bag for an hour!, and as such i thought it was meant to travel up and down the line ie. loose knot!

i think il remove it for a couple of flights to remove the margin for mistake -- after that i'l lay the lines on the floor tight and tie the knot tight on full extension of the tst line.

im yet again enlightened!.

thanks simon.

[Guest]

Macey,

You can of course still have a go at tip steering but reaching up for the line and giving it a gentle pull. BUT I think you should spend some time with someone who can teach you properly. It WILL save you money and may save your life.

SW

[Guest]

I also experienced a tip steer line being loose on and just after take off. Certainly a preflight failure on my part and due to inexperience on this wing system. But also, in my view, a design flaw. As it is, in my view, a "serious incident" as it could have resulted in injury or death to the pilot by becoming entagled in the prop during flight and causing a "wind-in" spiral, I have submitted an incident report to the AAIB via the BHPA reporting scheme on my incident. A report from you will also help the investigators assess whether this is an issue that needs to be taken up with the manufacturers who employ this design feature.

In my opinion, if the knot or line can be loose at pre-flight, could it also not becoming loose during flight? A simple modification to the system is all that is required to eliminate the possibility?

I can foresee a simple pulley system that shortens the tip line without allowing any slack line to billow backwards solving this potential problem.

[Guest]

Francis,

You have had more stuff go through your prop than anyone else I know, including people who PPG every day its flyable and so on....

Could it be you / your technique or something mate?

At the end of the day, if you checked it (assuming you had a revo that is) it would have been flying as per its manufactures specification and stuck to the valcro, thus no problem.

Between the Lambourn lot on there Revos, I dont know of anyone else who has had this issue.

Please say now if you have had

I feel though that this is 100% a pilot error and not a design 'fault' at all.

SW

[Guest]

You also still choose to decline my advice about changing your hang point position on your Macro which will make the gap from your lines to your prop much larger like it should be.

SW

[coggie49]

Good morning Francis.

I thought I would reply to this thread becouse I was reading your input last week about reporting any incidents or accidents to the AAIB and BHPA but I did think at the time, why bother reporting a near miss as Macky2KK had, but now reading that the same thing has happened to you it did shake up the old singe brain sell a bit and make me think, having just picked up my Revo last week from Simon it could be me, Simon did tell me at the time about the importance of cheaking tip stear tabs on your pre flights, he also told me of a very qualified pilot who phoned to say he had the similar problem and felt a bit of a fool for not seeing it.

So thank you again Francis we read and learn, this time it went in and stayed in.

David

[Guest]

This is not correct.

If you remember I told you about the line wrapping around the tab (a seperate pre flight check, issue)

Not related to the above in any way, one check is the knot (that is the above issue)

The other is that the valcro tab is a) fitted, and b) does not have the line wrapped around it. (that was the guy I was talking about)

Just for clarity

SW

[coggie49]

I did understand that Simon, but i didn't want to point a finger at the person it Happend to, I was makinmg a general point about doing your DIs correctly.

[Guest]

You are probably right Simon. I have had lots go through the prop. Many of my "incidents" are induced in order to test what can go wrong.

Another explanation is that my flying involves conditions and manouvers and machine combinations that are more liable to expose potential threats to pilots.

We fly pretty safe wings these days and it is entirely due to a few pilots exploring the edges and feeding their information into a central system that looks at all reports from ALL pilots and collates them after detailed investigation. Our own AAIB collaborates with European colleagues in these matters.

Paramotors and paramotorists have yet to fully benefit from the well defined systems that exist for other aircraft types. Only by encouraging all of our colleagues to report centrally can we benefit from the safety margin increases that this system has delivered to others. Microlighting is a perfect example. In the early days there was little reporting and much crashing. Once the BMAA (microlight pilots grouping together to organise their sport) created the reporting system and the manufacturers got involved in developing their machines based on that feedback loop, the crashing subsided somewhat.

There are two issues that have emerged through the limited reporting of incidents concerning looping back of lines. One is this one and another is to do with cage proximity on full open trim (sic.Pete_b et al).

Neither of these would have even been investigated without the incidents being reported, the conclusion will be at least several months away.

Whether or not they pose a real threat that need design modification or result in a specific safety or preflight briefing can only be determined once the investigation is concluded.

In my opinion a slip knot that can and has resulted in more than one incident is worthy of professional investigation. Investigation that is carried out away from public discussion by trained professionals of the AAIB but which relies on open and honest reporting of the facts (only) of the incident.

I am suggesting that all of us whose words may be considered worthy of listening to by our community should encourage the reporting of any incident that results in the aircraft commander saying such things as " I luckily escaped a severe situation today"

These are merley my opinions and are, of course, subject to debate.

[Guest]

Again, For clarity....

Pete B was a brake handle and not a tip line. (as above)

I may be wrong but I have his brake handle here with no magnet.

SW

[Guest]

Thanks for your input David.

Just to be cllear, the tip steering lines and their slip knot are clearly defined in the manual as an important preflight chec. Also, as Simon has pointed out, he and instructors he recommends, always brief this pre-flight to their students and their wing customers. That is not in any doubt.

My point is a general one about the importance of reporting incidents that we experience to a central investigation system for our mutual protection and benefit.

I have also expressed an opinion about the design of the tip steer eradicate the need for the additional pre-flight to check that the adjustable knot is still where it should be every flight.

[Guest]

Do you not think that it would be simpler to contact the people who make the kit first?

I know if I buy something that I consider or percive to be faulty, I will call the manufactures and ask for advice / help.

SW

[Guest]

Again, For clarity....

Pete B was a brake handle and not a tip line. (as above)

I may be wrong but I have his brake handle here with no magnet.

SW

That is my understanding too. The looping back at full trim, in extremely turbulent conditions, with a large diameter prop, of the rear line set, permitting handle contact with the prop, resulting in an emergency landing with parts of the machine destroyed and missing, having fallen to earth over a residential property, and after the partial winding in of the brake line innitiating a violent turn at or below 100feet agl.

If that is not a "reportable accident" under the Air Navigation Order carrying a several thousand pound and some years in jail maximum penalty for failure to comply, I dont know what is.

There were a number of witnesses, participants and organising "officials", all of whom would be considered under the "duty to report", including some whose jobs and reputations in aviation would be at stake by association under any prosecution.

in my ipinion

[Guest]

One of our number on a Revo yesterday had the toggle/tab thingy separate from the line followed by a hasty return before the flailing line found the prop.

[Guest]

Do you not think that it would be simpler to contact the people who make the kit first?

I know if I buy something that I consider or percive to be faulty, I will call the manufactures and ask for advice / help.

SW

Certainly, as well. But the issue may be wider than that, and often is.

I do not feel qualified to make those judgements but am willing to trust the AAIB to make them.

And re my own incident? I reported it to wing importer at the time of the incident.

[Guest]

One of our number on a Revo yesterday had the toggle/tab thingy separate from the line followed by a hasty return before the flailing line found the prop.

I have to say this is very odd indeed??

The toggle is attached using the same sewn end system that attaches all of the lines on your wing. For it to become "seperate" the line must have snapped 'first'

Although your message is not clear? what happened exaclty? did he crash as a result of a wind in? or just land? When you say hasty did he spiral or just land? When you say "seperate" did it come off or was it not fixed to the Valcro?

When you say "before the flailing line found the prop" did it find it in the air? or did he land before it did? Or did it not at all?

No need to dramatise just facts will do.

Off for a fly now, c ya.

SW

[Guest]

He took off exactly alongside me with Rob following on a few seconds behind us. Rob and I carried on up and flew for a couple of hours while we watched the other guy fly a wide circuit before returning back for a normal landing. He packed that wing away and got out his spare and took off again to rejoin us so I didn't get to see the failed end but just heard what he told us in the pub later on. He said that the tab thingy came off in his hand and the line was flailing in the breeze.

The Paramania reflex wing I flew in China the other day hadn't have its tip steering kit fitted so I didn't get to see quite what they look like. Why don't Paramania fit them in the factory so that they can verify proper installation bearing in mind they require specific attention during preflight?

Footnote: can we have an option to turn off this annoying linking feature please. I spelt P a r a m a n i a with a capital P but it changes it to lower case. I spelt r e f l e x with a lower case r but it changes it to upper case making it look like I have the grammar of a chav!

[dantheman]

Why don't Paramania fit them in the factory so that they can verify proper installation bearing in mind they require specific attention during preflight?

The earlier wings like mine did not come with the TST kit as it was not available at that time so you had no choice but to retro fit them yourself once they were out. I believe Paramania now fit the Mk2 risers with the tip steering kit.

[Guest]

Dan, I flew a brand new Paramania wing design on Friday and it had no tip steering system installed.

[bathboy]

You are probably right Simon. I have had lots go through the prop. Many of my "incidents" are induced in order to test what can go wrong.

Another explanation is that my flying involves conditions and manouvers and machine combinations that are more liable to expose potential threats to pilots.

We fly pretty safe wings these days and it is entirely due to a few pilots exploring the edges and feeding their information into a central system that looks at all reports from ALL pilots and collates them after detailed investigation. Our own AAIB collaborates with European colleagues in these matters.

Paramotors and paramotorists have yet to fully benefit from the well defined systems that exist for other aircraft types. Only by encouraging all of our colleagues to report centrally can we benefit from the safety margin increases that this system has delivered to others. Microlighting is a perfect example. In the early days there was little reporting and much crashing. Once the BMAA (microlight pilots grouping together to organise their sport) created the reporting system and the manufacturers got involved in developing their machines based on that feedback loop, the crashing subsided somewhat.

There are two issues that have emerged through the limited reporting of incidents concerning looping back of lines. One is this one and another is to do with cage proximity on full open trim (sic.Pete_b et al).

Neither of these would have even been investigated without the incidents being reported, the conclusion will be at least several months away.

Whether or not they pose a real threat that need design modification or result in a specific safety or preflight briefing can only be determined once the investigation is concluded.

In my opinion a slip knot that can and has resulted in more than one incident is worthy of professional investigation. Investigation that is carried out away from public discussion by trained professionals of the AAIB but which relies on open and honest reporting of the facts (only) of the incident.

I am suggesting that all of us whose words may be considered worthy of listening to by our community should encourage the reporting of any incident that results in the aircraft commander saying such things as " I luckily escaped a severe situation today"

These are merley my opinions and are, of course, subject to debate.

I (eventually...) reported my prop bites brake episode using the BHPA incident form ( http://www.bhpa.co.uk/pdf/IR10_06.pdf printed at home) that was dead easy and the postage was pre-paid. After a few days I got a nice reply confirming it had been logged and giving me another form to replace the one I had used. This all felt very professional, and as easy to do as possible.

Mine was with the Action brakes on their magnets, while I moved to get into the seat, that was impossible as the seat board had moved. I now do a better pre-flight check of the seat board and have fitted fine mesh to my Volution, both improve my safety.

I know of another experience pilot (not on this forum) who found loose line on his Revo when the tip steering knot loosened after pre-flight. He has some climbing experience so thinks the climbing prussic knots used isn't ideal as the prussic 'feature' is it can slide when not under load.

Cheers

Paul

P.S.

I still highly rate the Revo, Action/Reaction and Volution. Problems will always occur in the real world situations, so raising them to the governing bodies and manufacturers isn't a criticism nor is it something to be avoided. It will help speed the development of improved design/s and might prevent another incident.

Please report any incident using the BHPA form - it only takes a few minutes - treat it like giving blood, something you do for others that just might saves lifes.

P.P.S.

I'm not a BHPA member, yet... so anyone can use their form http://www.bhpa.co.uk/pdf/IR10_06.pdf

[Guest]

... P.S. I still highly rate the Revo, Action/Reaction and Volution. Problems will always occur in the real world situations, so raising them to the governing bodies and manufacturers isn't a criticism nor is it something to be avoided. It will help speed the development of improved design/s and might prevent another incident...

Great post Paul. This is purely about ways to make the products we have even better.