fuel9m Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Hi All This is my first post on here. I've recently bought my first paramotor - a PAP 1100 AS. Noticed that there is quite a bit of sideways play on both swingarms where they connect to the cage/frame. The retaining bolts are plenty tight though. Do you think this side play is undesireable or dangerous? Should there be some sideplay or should the bars be totally rigid and resistant to sideways motion? The previous owner supplied me with new bushes for the bars so these may need to be replaced which could solve the problem. Also the motor has some modified shackles to counteract the torque effect, the bolts for these go directly through the swingarm and I'm wondering if metal on metal is asking for trouble? Thanks in advance for any help/thoughts. Cheers, Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcs Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Hi Joe My advice would be to do what most other Pap owners have done and go for the new moulded arms with built in offset, this old system as you've already noticed is somewhat dodgy and is widely seen as the one downside of the last generation of Pap chassis. Give Skydragons a call as he probably has them in stock, you can see a pic of them here http://lh4.ggpht.com/papteam/R4-TD1kNzs ... G_9307.JPG Cheers Malc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuel9m Posted October 5, 2008 Author Share Posted October 5, 2008 Thanks Malc, those arms do look better. I'm guessing play at the pivot is reduced due to that end of the arm being beefier? Do you know if the arms come with the bolts and shackles? Do you know how much the arms cost? Cheers Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 If you find that the new bars are too much for you at the moment, I could run up a pair of bushes to press into your old arms if you give me dimensions. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcs Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Thanks Malc, those arms do look better. I'm guessing play at the pivot is reduced due to that end of the arm being beefier? Do you know if the arms come with the bolts and shackles? Do you know how much the arms cost? Cheers Joe Hi Joe I believe they do come with all the necessary fixings as a friend just updated his, in the region of around £100, I think. Cheers Malc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I would not be comfortable with the offset shackles and would be inclined to ditch them, as you motor is the same as mine your seating position will allready be offset in relation to the arms to counter the tourqe so you dont need the shackles, not only that but from a purely engineering point of view they are suspect to say the least, as Malcs said go for the arm upgrade I will be doing this myself soon. as for the side ways movement, mine have none and from what I have been told that this has been a weak point on some of the older models, before you fit the new arms check that bolt holes are still tight a straight all that side ways movement may have done some damage to the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuel9m Posted October 5, 2008 Author Share Posted October 5, 2008 If you find that the new bars are too much for you at the moment, I could run up a pair of bushes to press into your old arms if you give me dimensions.Regards Thanks Phil, I've got some new bushes which the previous owner supplied me with but I've decided I'm going to get the new arms. Cheers anyway, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuel9m Posted October 5, 2008 Author Share Posted October 5, 2008 Thanks for the advice. I'm going to try and get the new arms this week. They do look a lot more substantial than the existing set-up with offset shackles. £100 or so seems a small price to pay for peace of mind! Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcs Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 £100 or so seems a small price to pay for peace of mind!Joe That's the correct attitude to start out in this sport with in my opinion, paramotors are replaceable, money is replaceable, your life isn't! Good luck! Malc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 ...£100 or so seems a small price to pay for peace of mind... It is a small price, too small in fact! I seem to remember it cost me £130 when I replaced the arms on a PAP I used to own. The new arms are a far nicer design and piece of engineering than the originals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 As a slight aside, One of my students has recently purchased a PAP (with new arms fitted) and he called me saying that he picked the motor up to put it on his back and one of the arms fell off! This was only due to a loose bolt holding on the arm and no means of securing the bolts used to fit them. As it happens he was not going for a fly, (not at that point) but worth mentioning sonce were talking about them SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuel9m Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 As a slight aside, One of my students has recently purchased a PAP (with new arms fitted) and he called me saying that he picked the motor up to put it on his back and one of the arms fell off! This was only due to a loose bolt holding on the arm and no means of securing the bolts used to fit them. As it happens he was not going for a fly, (not at that point) but worth mentioning sonce were talking about them SW Hi Simon Wasn't loctite used on the bolts? Do you know of any other methods of securing bolts other than wirelocking or peening the heads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 As a slight aside, One of my students has recently purchased a PAP (with new arms fitted) and he called me saying that he picked the motor up to put it on his back and one of the arms fell off! This was only due to a loose bolt holding on the arm and no means of securing the bolts used to fit them. As it happens he was not going for a fly, (not at that point) but worth mentioning sonce were talking about them SW If that was Eddie then it was my old machine. Was it Eddie's? That makes interesting reading as I seem to remember they just specified a torque setting. It would seem highly prudent to Loctite as well then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Did not want to say who but yes LOLOL Locktight is a good idea / must I recon. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardc Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Yes, it was me and I have now improved the pre-flight checks! I know that the kit was well looked after by Ian which is why I have'nt mentioned it before. It seems to me that the torque setting is inadequate, mainly because the bolts are a very course thread and would be much better and secure if it was a fine thread. I have retightened and used loctite which, so far, seem to do the job and is all that can be done!. Just make sure you check your kit properly before each flight. Remember, complacency kills. Eddie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Glad to hear that you discovered it when you did Eddie. I'm starting to think that Loctite is the most important item in your toolbox. I had a ground handling strap attachment bolt come undone on my Bailey inflight a few weeks ago which fortunately hung down under its own weight. It could easily have swung back into the prop arc. Lesson learnt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) please, please,,please report these incidents to the bhpa whether you are member or not. the system works well to feed info to owners and manufacturers. the AAIB get involved if there is a major issue. its one of the good things about the bhpa! our sadety depends being well informed, manufacturers take notice of a reporrt. http://www.bhpa.co.uk/pdf/IR10_06.pdf Edited October 6, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Agreed, Although the BHPA only has a snippet of the Paramotoring members that this or many other paramotor clubs have, and many / most of the bhpa members look here anyway..... It is still worth sending safety info the them just in case thay have missed something in the PPG world. Francis, maybe you should do it? being a member and all...??? If they asked us, I am sure that we could produce reports to help ist PPG members? recon its a go? SW:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 absollutely! just download the pdf link above, fill it in a post it pre-paid. much better for the witness to dp it with the full facts, but I can if you prefer. doesn't matter if you are a member or not, the info goes to the right place and gets checked with european federations, dhv and ifvl etc. its a cleari house for info for everyone's benefit round the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) Why dont you become the BHPA rep for the Paramotor Club? It seems as though they should have one... If they want safety, and getting the message out.... they should already have one? You could do a good thing for your club here Francis.... SW Edited October 7, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuel9m Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 I just bought the new PAP arms from Skydragons. They come complete with bolts and shackles which is handy. £145 delivered. Here is the link if anyone is thinking of getting some: http://www.skydragons.co.uk/index.php?p ... Itemid=161 Cheers, Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Why dont you become the BHPA rep for the Paramotor Club? It seems as though they should have one...If they want safety, and getting the message out.... they should already have one? You could do a good thing for your club here Francis.... SW Not really the point I was making. It does not benefit the bhpa to have the incidents collated and analysed, it benefits every pilot in the world. The incident reporting scheme is far more than simply a means of getting a message out to members of a small club. I was not promoting the BHPA but, rather, the incident reporting scheme. The people who run it have direct access to the CAA, the AAIB, the manufacturers, the European and international Federations and form part of a global network collating incidents so that what often appear to be isolated incidents can be analysed and patterns discerned. There is no other such system in place in the UK and certainly not for PPG. Try to ignore the fact of who runs it and see it for what it is. telling mates on a forum, whilst very helpful in a localised way, does nothing for the big picture. I am not in the least parochial in this matter. As far as generally representing the BHPA, I am probably not the best person to do this, as I can be their fiercest critic when they act parochially! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I see two problems with me (or anyone else reporting a reportable accident to the appropriate legal authority (BHPA for non-fatal or AAIB directly for fatal) 1. is that the first question to be aksed will be "Why did the Commander of the aircraft not report it, as required by law"? 2. The facts are not known to me, only the hearsay. Two problems with safety investigations being carried out on open forum. 1. the cause cannot be investigated thouroughly or consistently. 2. the manufacturer's reputation is at stake. The thinking behind the system is that investigation needs to be carried out by trained individuals with legal powers of investigation who will not publish a report until all the facts are verified and the cause and remedy established. This gives the manufacturer opportunity to re-design and if approipriate recall products for alteration or upgrade and provides an acountable system not subject to spurious input or opinion. Remember, always, the purpose is not to aportion blame. It is to prevent recurrence. Guilty or not, you cannot be prosecuted based on your testimony in an AAIB report, but you can for failing to report, even if you are innocent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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