AndyB Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 Ah, yes that is a little weak. I still keep the A's off the hoop with my very long arms though....6' 4". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) I've been flying for five years and haven't had to power launch yet, so that's not a problem. Ideally I would like my new engine to be light, comfortable and easy to maintain. Top 80 on ABM frame is on the list. It just nags me that I could get a motor that weigh almost 5 kg less with custom parts. But I'm also not very technical so there's that. I'm also on the fence about belt drive. It feels like yet another finicky thing that needs attention every now and then. Cas, if you had to choose one of your setups, which one would you keep? Edited March 5, 2020 by Magnus Törnvall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas_whitmore Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 AC eos , because of lightness, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Magnus Törnvall said: I've been flying for five years and haven't had to power launch yet, so that's not a problem. Ideally I would like my new engine to be light, comfortable and easy to maintain. Top 80 on ABM frame is on the list. It just nags me that I could get a motor that weigh almost 5 kg less with custom parts. But I'm also not very technical so there's that. I'm also on the fence about belt drive. It feels like yet another finicky thing that needs attention every now and then. Cas, if you had to choose one of your setups, which one would you keep? My AC Nitro belt has been tightened twice in 78 hours. It takes under 5 minutes and I did it in a field in the middle of France last year when it started slipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas_whitmore Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I’ve had no trouble with my belt , maybe clutched motors are a bit kinder to the belts , as Andy said they quick to sort out even on the field . I did buy a double width belt and sliced it in to two , two for price of one , but still on oem belt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Shotan Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I definitely wouldn't be tinkering with custom parts on a machine that holds my life in it's "hands", especially if I were "not very technical". Paramotors are (or should be) designed as a whole unit with parts matched and tested together. 5kg less weight invariably means loss of strength somewhere within that design. I would become a highly experienced flyer and competent engineer before considering altering my machine or wing! There are no lay -bys or garages in the sky....... Stay safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, Paul Shotan said: I definitely wouldn't be tinkering with custom parts on a machine that holds my life in it's "hands", especially if I were "not very technical". Paramotors are (or should be) designed as a whole unit with parts matched and tested together. 5kg less weight invariably means loss of strength somewhere within that design. I would become a highly experienced flyer and competent engineer before considering altering my machine or wing! There are no lay -bys or garages in the sky....... Stay safe Custom in the sense that I was planning on putting an EOS engine on the Air conception delta frame. So not very custom. Although, I'm curious about the total weight of the Air conception machines. They claim very low weight everywhere, and the Miniplane is still just as light. The numbers don't add up. So a Miniplane ABM with EOS 100 and the AC soft fuel tank should make for a very light setup. 17.5ish kg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Shotan Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Sorry I assumed by "custom" you were replacing individual parts!!! Even switching motors can have an effect on performance and safety; different mount points, weight distribution, torque effects, clearances, vibration and so on. I would still get advice first! Perhaps I'm too much of a wuss??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 37 minutes ago, Paul Shotan said: Sorry I assumed by "custom" you were replacing individual parts!!! Even switching motors can have an effect on performance and safety; different mount points, weight distribution, torque effects, clearances, vibration and so on. I would still get advice first! Perhaps I'm too much of a wuss??? I'm starting to question myself about this very minor customization, just because of my limited technical know-how and lack of patience. It seems that I can get the Miniplane ABM with EOS mounts from the manufacturer, so I think that might be the better option for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas_whitmore Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I did offer the eos up to Miniplane, tank was a issue is that why you mentioned soft tank . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Magnus Törnvall said: Custom in the sense that I was planning on putting an EOS engine on the Air conception delta frame. So not very custom. Although, I'm curious about the total weight of the Air conception machines. They claim very low weight everywhere, and the Miniplane is still just as light. The numbers don't add up. So a Miniplane ABM with EOS 100 and the AC soft fuel tank should make for a very light setup. 17.5ish kg. Just keep the thrust line (centre of prop) in the same position and ensure the prop is set back the same distance from the hoop. If different motor is higher power then torque is more. If torque is a lot different then more anti-torque needed, but this can usually be increased or decreased by simply having slightly different hang point on one side ie if torque pulls to the right then move the left hang point a little further back, then your weight will lean more on that side and hence compensate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, cas_whitmore said: I did offer the eos up to Miniplane, tank was a issue is that why you mentioned soft tank . In an attempt to sound knowledgeable and smart I'll answer "Yes". In reality it was more because of weight and practicality. But it does seem like the fuel tank and EOS geometry might not play nice. 3 hours ago, AndyB said: Just keep the thrust line (centre of prop) in the same position and ensure the prop is set back the same distance from the hoop. If different motor is higher power then torque is more. If torque is a lot different then more anti-torque needed, but this can usually be increased or decreased by simply having slightly different hang point on one side ie if torque pulls to the right then move the left hang point a little further back, then your weight will lean more on that side and hence compensate. Yes, the actual implementation seems pretty straightforward. I might end up going this route. I'll make sure to test fly the Miniplane ABM first though. Edited March 5, 2020 by Magnus Törnvall 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ferguson Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 There is a fair bit to think about when swapping engines in frames but the issues are not unsurpassable you just have to think it through. I'm not sure if it has been mentioned but this video series will give you things to think about. It was a great help when I was working on putting the Moster MY19 in my Airconception frame. It worked really out well when I did mine. The only issue I had was I moved the mass just a little to close to my back it was nothing and extra prop spacer didn't fix to give me an extra 10mm hoop clearance. I'm always will to help if you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, Adam Ferguson said: There is a fair bit to think about when swapping engines in frames but the issues are not unsurpassable you just have to think it through. I'm not sure if it has been mentioned but this video series will give you things to think about. It was a great help when I was working on putting the Moster MY19 in my Airconception frame. It worked really out well when I did mine. The only issue I had was I moved the mass just a little to close to my back it was nothing and extra prop spacer didn't fix to give me an extra 10mm hoop clearance. I'm always will to help if you need it. Thank you! I've watched the video series before, but forgot about it. Yea, I'm very tempted to take on this project. But then I hesitate because I know myself. How do you make the spacers to distance the engine from the frame? Are these parts readily available in stores? I can get help to manufacture carbon plates for moving the mounting points. But I don't know how to distance the engine correctly from the frame. On 05/03/2020 at 15:14, cas_whitmore said: I did offer the eos up to Miniplane, tank was a issue is that why you mentioned soft tank . I just realized that it's the rigid frame that you can get modded for any engine. Not that it matters much for me. I prefer to keep it assembled anyways. But not having the option of taking it apart might end up being frustrating. Edited March 6, 2020 by Magnus Törnvall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 7, 2020 Author Share Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) Cas, would these do for mounting the the EOS 100 on the AC frame? To create the necessary distance from the frame. https://shop.aviatorppg.com/products/air-conception-xl-motor-mounts-delta-frame How long are the spacers that you use? They seem pretty long. Why move the engine so far from the frame? Because of the exhaust? Edited March 7, 2020 by Magnus Törnvall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas_whitmore Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 There’s a minimum distance you can work to , that’s because the pull starter sticks out the front of the motor and needs to clear your harness , and not stick in your back , I turned up what I needed out of ally bar stock and kept the iso mounts short ,hence more rigid. Engine bore /stroke not to far from square so very little vibrations to start with . ill measure what I did tomorrow and get back to you , I don’t know the delta frame ,only pics so can’t say if my dimensions are the same . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, cas_whitmore said: There’s a minimum distance you can work to , that’s because the pull starter sticks out the front of the motor and needs to clear your harness , and not stick in your back , I turned up what I needed out of ally bar stock and kept the iso mounts short ,hence more rigid. Engine bore /stroke not to far from square so very little vibrations to start with . ill measure what I did tomorrow and get back to you , I don’t know the delta frame ,only pics so can’t say if my dimensions are the same . Yes, according to the technical drawing of the engine it needs at least 42mm clearance because of the pull starter. And I figure another 15-20mm, for good measure, would do it. But I only have the drawings and pictures to work with. The dealers for the engine and frame are both 250 miles from where I live. According to my calculations to vertically center the prop axel, the top engine mount needs to be mounted 2.5mm below the hole in the frame. Is that in accordance with your measurements? Also, how is noice and vibrations of the EOS compared to Top 80? Edited March 8, 2020 by Magnus Törnvall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Shotan Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 Hi Magnus, I'm in Birmingham if that's any nearer for you to take a look and measurements from an EOS? You're welcome to come if it helps. Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 45 minutes ago, Paul Shotan said: Hi Magnus, I'm in Birmingham if that's any nearer for you to take a look and measurements from an EOS? You're welcome to come if it helps. Cheers, Paul I'm from Sweden, so unfortunately no. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas_whitmore Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 Here’s the measurements for my stand offs , Top are 55mm and bottom ones 46mm. Plus 30mm for iso mounts and another 6 mm for the lugs in between engine frame and iso mount , could of used 55 or 46 on all four , noise is about equal just different tone , vibration very little on each motor, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 Excellent, thanks a bunch. I just have to figure out how to make a mounting bracket with an immerged bolt. The distance between the holes is not big enough to fit the bolt head, right? Seems like you have plenty space between engine and frame. Any particular reason for using different lengths for top and bottom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas_whitmore Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 Wanted to try a different thrust angle , see if launch was any different, as regards to climb out , might of not sure really 2 wings I have climb at different rates , the bolts are counter sunk heads , I didn’t use thread lock on the bolts going in to iso mounts , proper ball ache removing them with thread lock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) My plan was to have horizontal or vertical carbon fiber plates between the mounting points, with holes for the frame and the engine mounts. But looking at your pictures I can see that vertical plates are not an option. Would it be possible to have 2-2.5 inch wide horizontal plates between the mounting points? Or will some part of the engine be in the way? Edited March 8, 2020 by Magnus Törnvall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas_whitmore Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 Top plate will be ok ,bottom you might need to relieve it a tad around the starter assembly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Törnvall Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 2 hours ago, cas_whitmore said: Top plate will be ok ,bottom you might need to relieve it a tad around the starter assembly Alright, thanks a bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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