Bernie Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 I'm new to the sport, and I assume the answer to this is going to be some combination of cost, complexity (two starters, two clutches, double the electrics, and fuel lines), and weight, but I'd like to see if there's anything else to consider, or if people have stories about failed attempts. The openppg project has 4 electric motors and seems to work well--seems the only limitation is the classic energy density of batteries vs. fuel problem. There's the British twin-motor electric PPG. Though it doesn't seem to have gained acceptance, it does seem that others have had the same idea. From reading and watching, it seems that _active_ pilots (of two-strokes) tend to get about 1 motor out per year or per 1-200 hours. Given that, it kinda puts me into territory where I'd be worried about flying long distances, especially over water, rocky areas, dense trees, etc.. It would be really cool to have somewhat better confidence about doing so--at least having the ability to limp out. Seems to me the ideal paramotor would have two vertically-opposed 75-100cc two-strokes. Has anybody tried anything like this? Why / why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidG4 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 When going for reliability most folk would change engines from two to four strokes ratjer than just adding an extra source of two stroke trouble. The RLNI don't run multiple 2c engines on their ribs, Just one four-stroke which they regards as 100pc reliable. What the reasons are for ppg I couldn't say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Posted April 12, 2019 Author Share Posted April 12, 2019 on the topic of 4-strokes, I'd also be interested to know how they are effectively oiled without some sort of dry-sump and air-separator in acro situations... i was thinking that might be enough for me--just go with a bailey v5, but it seems the volumes on sales are low enough that I'm still not totally sure I'd feel comfortable... and i'm not immediately seeing a Japanese 4-stroke dirt-bike option that doesn't have the gearbox and clutch built in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidG4 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 I'm.not sure sales volume is a good indicator of reliability. I used to fly model fourstrokes and One of the most reliable engines out there was or is the laser engines. They sell very few compared with OS but they are top notch reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin (Simon W) Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 9 hours ago, DavidG4 said: I'm.not sure sales volume is a good indicator of reliability. BIC Razor proves that point nicely! SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Posted April 14, 2019 Author Share Posted April 14, 2019 LOL, right, my point was more that to generate meaningful statistics, you have to have a decent sample size. I hear what you're saying about quality though. Regardless, I'm starting to think that maybe a single 4-stroke is the way to go if I'm looking for reliability until I've engineered something better for myself. I noticed that Bailey now recommends against using av-gas, and recommends 95-98 octane. Here in the states, that's race gas and isn't the easiest to find (or the cheapest)--while avgas is. I guess Bailey must have fitted the V5 with a slightly decked head to increase compression or something? Or do people run the V5 on 92 octane successfully? I guess the real question I should be asking is: what's the compression ratio of the engine? I don't see it listed and I was unable to find it when searching. Alternatively, do some people run av-gas with a detergent like seafoam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidG4 Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 It sounds like Bailey recommend mogas instead of avgas. The usual reason is the lead content although the energy content can be an issue. Mogas is lead free, avgas is low lead. Some engines foul up when using 100LL avgas. Maybe thats why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 A few of us Bailey owners use an additive to the fuel - Classic Valvemaster Plus, doesn't cost a lot as you don't need much per litre. https://www.demon-tweeks.com/castrol-valvemaster-plus-lead-replacement-with-octane-booster-cas1770/?istCompanyId=a2904180-3a7d-4e56-b876-cf81c9512180&istItemId=-xpitwalqqa&istBid=t&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzc3wu__O4QIVYrXtCh07KQu2EAQYASABEgKCqfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidG4 Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 Alan, so it IS about the lead? Same as my old Mainair Blade's Rotax... Im answer to the original question, about reliability though, im not sure what the engine out stats for 2c engines are. What I do know is that my honda 4c lawnmower never ever ever stops and it always starts within half a pull of the pull start once it's warm. Might take two pulls when cold. Whilst I always think single engine over water is a fool's game, Id have no qualms flying my lawnmower!! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Posted April 14, 2019 Author Share Posted April 14, 2019 10 hours ago, alan_k said: A few of us Bailey owners use an additive to the fuel - Classic Valvemaster Plus, doesn't cost a lot as you don't need much per litre. https://www.demon-tweeks.com/castrol-valvemaster-plus-lead-replacement-with-octane-booster-cas1770/?istCompanyId=a2904180-3a7d-4e56-b876-cf81c9512180&istItemId=-xpitwalqqa&istBid=t&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzc3wu__O4QIVYrXtCh07KQu2EAQYASABEgKCqfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds Thanks! Seems like that could work. Just kind of a bummer that I can't refuel with typical ethanol free premium found more commonly in the states (at 90-93 octane) without running an additive, while avgas is at basically every airport, so very easy to find... Anybody know the compression ratio in the V5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidG4 Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 Well out of interest I read the Bailey v5 manual and it does not say you can't use ethanol free pump fuel, neither does it mention using additives. It only says DON'T use avgas. Now, I'm no engine guru but I know that some engines don't like lead, and I.know why. I also know that some folk who use these little engines do add additives and I wouldn't gainsay them...but I would say this, if you think you can't run your Bailey on pump mogas why not eMail baileys and ask THEM? They make the engines. David Alan, so it IS about the lead? Same as my old Mainair Blade's Rotax... Im answer to the original question, about reliability though, im not sure what the engine out stats for 2c engines are. What I do know is that my honda 4c lawnmower never ever ever stops and it always starts within half a pull of the pull start once it's warm. Might take two pulls when cold. Whilst I always think single engine over water is a fool's game, Id have no qualms flying my lawnmower!! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Posted April 14, 2019 Author Share Posted April 14, 2019 Well, I was writing to Bailey, and in the process did some research about common 4-stroke dirt bike engines, avgas, compression ratios, and octane ratings. To completely add to my confusion, I guess the octane ratings in the UK are higher than that in the states, and the 95-98 octane requirement is actually equivalent to 92 premium in the states (because the UK uses RON, and the US uses MON). It does appear that more informed posters on MX forums also suggest to not use avgas in modern four stroke dirt-bikes because it collects on the titanium valves. However, now that I've learned about the octane rating difference, all my concern about avgas is probably moot, and I bet I can safely run 92 octane (in the US) without additives... I'll still email Bailey about the compression ratio and followup here. Somewhat interestingly, in the process I learned that my WR450f (dirt bike) has a compression ratio of 12.3:1. It blows my mind that I've been able to get away with running it on 92 (and not higher), but it seems like that's what everybody does. I think it even had a sticker on the tank when I bought it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidG4 Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 Be interested to know what Baileys say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 Compression ratio is 10.8. From Paul: "The V5/V5S engine can run of 92 octane without any problems. It can also run on 89 Octane with a small ignition timing adjustment." This all sounds totally reasonable to me, and I'll be running one on ethanol-free pump gas 92 if / when I get one after training. Seems like the best option for me, right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidG4 Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 Glad.you got.your answer and thanks for telling us. Good luck with training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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