Guest Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 All, I am interested to know, so think that others may also be... Please comment / vote on the following. If it became law that we required a licence to fly our Paramotors which would you opt for as the route.... a) BMAA b) BHPA c) New paramotor organisation. I ask just becasue I was thinking about exaclty this last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
learner_driver Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 The one that looked easiest - I am assuming that you have been flying for some time - If not then the one with the better Air law priviledges Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 (edited) If there was a well constituted organisation that had the recognition of the authority (CAA), a solid and well developed syllabus and the minimum of clart* then I would go that route. What is very apparant is that there is a prize for those who are prepared to go in and grab an opportunity - is it your money they want? If the BHPA approached this new sport in a mature fashion with eye to the benefit of the participants, their knowledge base would have a lot to contribute. I am leery of the central theme of some organizations though, they have their eye on 'monetization' to the exclusion of other things like members interests. This draws a cynical veil over an organisation before it starts. Independence is cool though! Clart - the kind of stuff that you would walk miles to avoid - politics, greed, envy and committees run by idiots. Edited April 21, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 For me the bit that is missing from anything currently available is the international recognition of my Paramotoring rating. I am cool for paragliding, certainly in Europe and also many other countries but my PPG is UK only. There is no Europe wide or international equivalence. And thats just flying the thing. Instructing abroad is another issue that needsto be addressed and any new scheme if it incorporated this element would be a very serious contender indeed. Any new scheme would need to address that issue. It would need to get the agreement of all the national federations across Europe and that would be the key to getting it accepted more widely across the world. such a rating would be very attractive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Good point Francis, the FAI have dragged their heels a bit on this one. They would seem to be an ideal body to issue a certificate on the basis of national qualification but without a central body to administer it... we go around in circles. Perhaps recognition and affiliation is the route? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 (edited) If there was a well constituted organisation that had the recognition of the authority (CAA), a solid and well developed syllabus and the minimum of clart* then I would go that route. What is very apparant is that there is a prize for those who are prepared to go in and grab an opportunity - is it your money they want? I dont see the sylabus as the main problem Norman. The BHPA sylabus has the approval of the insurers not so much because it has any intrinsic merit above others but because it is delivered through a system that assures its quality via school and instructor validation and inspection. If the BHPA approached this new sport in a mature fashion with eye to the benefit of the participants, their knowledge base would have a lot to contribute. I am leery of the central theme of some organizations though, they have their eye on 'monetization' to the exclusion of other things like members interests. This draws a cynical veil over an organisation before it starts. Any organisation that starts out doing one thing and ends up doing other things will have dinosaurs in post! There is unease at going too fast to include a group that has many unruly and even irresponsible elements. But I certainly agree that a more proactive approach (now in evidence) could have been attempted some years earlier! The commercial element must be separated from the adminstration and regulation (clear blue sky between them!). I can see a way forward if the insurers or their agents could be presented with a comprehensive package containing not just a sylabus but a complete operations manual that covers all elements of safety and procedural regulation for pilots and instructors to follow and whose quality is assured through regular inspection and re-validation by an independent technical officer......draws breath..........then maybe???? Maybe Harrison Beaumont or Versperian or On-Risk could be interested in presenting such a package to their underwriters and employ a technical officer to oversee its implementation? Edited April 21, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonphotographic Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 As a newcomer to this sport the lack of masses of compliance issues is a large part of it's appeal. I could buy a perfectly servicable microlight for less than a paramotor and wing, but to enjoy it's continued use a very large part of my meagre resources would be swallowed up by beurocracy. A structured syllabus, with regular quality control over instruction are of course ideal goals, and definately the way to go. However, the difficulty lies with how that system is implemented and then administered. If it gets to the stage that the beurocracy and therefore costs involved work to the detriment of the sport as it does in related others, it would be very sad indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Thats definitely to be avoided! at the same time we do need to show that we are responsible and accountable. There will be a middle road that we can steer. This is not a new situation. Paragliding and before that Hang gliding had very flakey beginnings and got to the point they were uninsurable - almost. The BHPA were forced to get something sorted out and for those sports they did it, and it only costs members currently 85 quid a year for 2 million TP insurance and all the beaurocracy needed. What has not happened is they have not tried to do the same for paramotoring in general. They have done it for paramotoring for paraglider pilot members but not the wider PPG community. I was just thinking that if we could follow that Hang Gliding model we could end up with that middle road? We certainly need to be seen by a wider audience to be talking and thinking seriously about how we present ourselves as a sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 We certainly need to be seen by a wider audience to be talking and thinking seriously about how we present ourselves as a sport Here, here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonphotographic Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 From what I have seen, the majority of PPG pilots have come from BHPA ranks anyway, so it's a natural progression for them. Therefore the same model would seem to be the ideal starting point. It's a rare blend. Familiar, but progressive and I for one like that idea. Major strengths are already there. The rate of development in this sport is extremely impressive. Wing technology, motors, even heated knickers! It would seem the old adage of KISS represents that middle road. Albeit "Keep It Simple (but) Safe" in this instance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Dragon, FYI We had a poll asking who was taught by who a few months ago and it seems that Independant was the most popular route (on this site) to training. I will find it again. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Here is the link. Please vote on this one too if you have not already done so. http://paramotorclub.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=911 SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonphotographic Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 thanks Simon I have seen that one I voted for start from scratch before I even left a comment. My meaning in that comment was (IMHO) a new dedicated structure would be ideal, based on the modified but generally already successful one. (A sort of hybrid BHPA/BMAA syllabus) I also totally agree with Francis, participants in any sport such as this do need to be seen to be putting, and keeping their house in order to ward off the largely unnecessary and certainly unwelcome future interferences of beurocracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkRussell Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 As an ex-member of both BHPA (Hang Gliding) and BMAA (Microlight) I must admit I'm quite enjoying NOT being a member of any organisation or association at the moment (this forum excluded!). I also quite like being taught by an independent instructor too. However, when I was (much) younger the warm feeling I got from knowing I was being taught to HG by 'qualified' instructors was quite important and I imagine that may be the same for some flying novices when learning PPG. I guess PPG is different for a lot of us as we come from other forms of aviation so we are possibly happier to judge the quality of our instruction (if we have any) for ourselves, rather than relying on the certificates he/she has on the wall. Having said all that, I don't have anything against membership of a suitable organization if it's main focus is PPG, which is why I voted for 'start from scratch'. I remember when the accuracy paracending clubs joined the BHPA and immediately became a very under-represented minority in an association whose main focus was HG and PG, always made me wonder why they joined? Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Mark, You make a very good point. If we look into the civil flying world generally, and the flying club/school environment specifically, we find that an organisation of this sort lives or dies on the quality of its instructors and staff, not their qualification. Go up many notches into all branches of aviation both military and civil and the story is replicated. Lack of regulation and control is a breath of fresh air, but the wind does blow from a prevailing direction, and freedom in this instance is blowing from the East I'm afraid. Hope that not too cryptic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathboy Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Hmmm. my recollection is the BAPC parascenders joined the HG after they 'invented' PG and gradually outnumbered the HG flyers. If the BHPA does as we hope and train PPG from flat fields, it can only be a good thing. I agree that independent instructors can be better, but most moans about 'qualified' or 'association' instructors are about their cost/overheads or people skills, not safety or their ability to teach. History may repeat itself and the 'association' wil rename again with a Power in the name. Cheers Paul P.S. Beer talking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonphotographic Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 Paul, I think you might be missing a bit of torque steer Read it again in the morning From the remnants of two organisations with diverging goals, there may be another way. Who knows? there may be 'Motor' in the title huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 Have you voted? SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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