Bailey V5 hard to start

[Yank]

Hello. Normally I pride myself in fixing my own things. Sigh. But I'm at whits end. So I'm reaching out to anyone who can help. I have a new Bailey V5 (pullstarter) on a Zenith frame. LOVE it!...if only it would reliably start. Once it starts, it runs as advertised. 

Things it does:

-Ground starting: it best starts when left out in the sun for about 5 hours...if at all. once it starts and warms up, it can be easily started on the back....unless it is left off for about 15 minutes or more. Once it starts, it will continue to run however, if shut off before it warms up, forget getting it started again; confusing to say the least.

-The easy start system (#trademark) appears to be functioning mechanically (the roller that the exhaust rocker engages does depress the exhaust valve slightly before compression gets hard...leading to number three below).

-the compression stroke is HEAVY. Its impossible to cold start from the back since I can only pull it over once per pull. VERY difficult to start cold (since I can actually pull the starter cord further; I can get about 2-3 cycles) on the ground. Not to mention, when trying to cold start, the compression stroke actually jerks the starter handle out of my hand! Its THAT heavy.

-the "throttle acceleration" does prime a spray of fuel into the carb as its supposed to. I've opened up the carb, no problems. the spark plug works, no air restriction at the air filter, belt is tight to spec and all pulleys and bearings spin freely. 

Am I missing something? No help from the manual. Bailey doesn't seem to respond to phone or email at ALL. I'm in the US so I can't exactly drive there. Also, I'm told by a US distributor that there's no way to retrofit the E Start to a pull starter motor. 

Basically, is this just how new motors "are" till they get "run in" for their first 10 hrs (per the manual) or has anyone had any different experiences with these motors? The manual says its supposedly "very easy to start" and doesn't say anything about "expect difficulty till 10 hrs" or anything. 

-I've read through https://www.paramotorclub.org/topic/7913-bailey-v5-pull-start-while-in-the-harness/ which gave me a bit of hope for the future but, anybody have any advice on what to do now? Thank you for any help.

[Scott Harcourt]

Hi, I have the same setup as you. I have a towbar rack and start mine on that to warm it up and pre-start. Then no issue with back starting even in -5°C. You’re correct regarding the retrofit of the e-start. Bailey told me it was not possible. 

[Yank]

Scott: Thanks for the reply. So, is the compression stroke super heavy for you as well? If so, does it stay that way or does it loosen up over time? 

[Scott Harcourt]

You.’re welcome. The compression is quite heavy, alot to do with no clutch and having to overcome the inertia of the prop system. I changed from helix to e-props and that made it slightly easier. My motor has low hours, so, I couldn’t say wheather it get’s easier mechanically. I can say it does get easier though. I think mainly because the muscles used aren’t usually used that often and not with the same exhertion. These quickly get stronger the more you back start the unit, alongside developing a good technique.

I would recomend a rack to start it and not ground start though. I lost a finger the first and only time I did...

Check this out if a rack isn’t possible.     

 

 

Good luck!

Edited July 15, 2018 by Scott Harcourt
Added info..

[AndySV1K]

My V5 is a 2011 one (not a V5S) and starting it is one of it's best features.  It had been sat for at least month and last night on the field it fired up first pull on my back and wasn't even a particularly hard pull.

I'd be concerned there's something wrong there.  I don't know the hours on my motor as it was purchased second hand and frankly I don't really trust anyones claimed hours use.  So it could be that mines loosened up, but yours sounds a real pain to start.

There are some very experienced bailey owners here so hopefully someone will give you some suggestions.  I can probably only offer the standard engine stuff which it sounds like you've already checked.

 

Andy.

[KIT352]

I'm not at all familiar with that particular motor but I would start with the basic stuff.  hard to start cold can be a sign of low compression so I would check that.  it's good to do every once in a while anyway.   pull the plug and gave a good look at that.  check the gap and colour.  finally check for fuel.  new motors can have little burrs in the lines that break free and can clog or partially block jets.  

[Scott Harcourt]

I made a point of starting my v5s without a warmup, on my back. Started second pull, no problem at 22°C

[Yank]

Andy: Thanks for the reply. you've helped me to know that this isn't actually normal which is quite helpful as, Bailey appears to have disappeared. I got a used E Start engine so, I may be able to retrofit the starter to my first engine one day. Its a bit sentimental being my first paramotor engine. 

KIT: Yep. did all that. twice. I even took the valve cover off to check the function of the "ez [sic] start" system. EVERything appears in good working order for this 1 hour machine. Fuel is there, air is there, spark is there, and compression sure as heck is there, and valve clearance is there. I ended up just buying another engine hoping that one day I'll find a solution to make this one work right. I lucked out with a state side guy who sent me his E start model. Once its mounted...#sighswithhopeandhappiness. 

Scott: Impressive! I'm thinking it really does get easier over time. Thanks again for the replies. I'm a big fan (pun intended...LOL) of the V5 engine. So disappointing to run into this. 

[Mark Morgan]

Yank.. When i used to deal with Bailey Paramotors I used to get things like this all the time,  Phone calls saying I can't start it!! there's something wrong with it!! Normally when they returned the Machine I would fire it up 1st second pull. There is a technique to starting baileys sometimes...  I'M NOT saying there isn't anything wrong with your motor..  

Probably best if you give me a call if you can as there are a few things you and do try before going down mechanical work as most do not need it... 

Give me a call on the Sussex Paramotors mobile number if you want 

 

Regards

Mark 

 

 

 

[AndySV1K]

Mark makes a very good point, here's what I do to start mine up when cold in case it's any use.... (It may not be the right procedure but works for me every time)

squeeze the priming bulb repeatedly and watch the fuel fill the lines and into the carb.  After a few squeezes, the bulb will go hard and I know there's nothing but fuel from tank to carb.

Then strap in and pump the throttle full extents 10-15 times.

Then I get ready to pull, I'd usually have just the tiniest amount of throttle squeezed during the pull.  Not much, just a bit of pressure.

But then be ready to pump the throttle if I need to to keep it running.  It almost always starts first pull and a couple of blips to keep it going for a few seconds and then it will idle on it's own.

The throttle squeezing gives a little squirt of fuel and when cold and it doesnt quite want to idle, repeated little squeezes will keep it going while it gets the first bit of heat into the engine.

Maybe give that a go and see what happens?

Andy.

[Bazza1111]

I do the same as Andy, hot or cold, I find 13 - 15 full squeezes on the throttle, after I’ve done the primer bulb thing, and it start fine. I tend to keep my throttle half open when I pull start and release when it fires up. 

When I first got it, it was a bit of a bitch working it out, but now it’s great, very reliable.

[Yank]

SUCCESS!! So, as any DIYer knows, finding something is actually wrong with a machine (rather than the darn thing just magically "doesn't work") is almost as exciting as finding the actual solution. So, I've concluded the "easy" start system does not function correctly on my engine. I bought a spare motor online (yes I did. and after as much money as I've already spent, kinda ticked off at this point). I compared the "easy" start system on the spare motor with the original motor. they CLEARLY function differently. So, for anyone interested, as I understand it the easy start system slightly compresses the exhaust valve by pushing up on the exhaust rocker during the compression stroke. Again, this is how I understand what is going on though it may be more complex than this. This is what I experience while pulling on the rope: 1) I feel about half resistance (feels like a speed bump if you will). 2) pulling the rope past this resistance, I then hit HARD resistance. so, essentially, its like a two step resistance, the first being about half as hard as the second. 

Looking at the spare engine, hand rotating it and watching the easy start mechanism, I feel the compression smoothly relax and hear air pass out of the cylinder (again smoothly). I see the easy start mechanism actually rotate (something I did NOT see on the original engine).

So, through this investigation, I've learned that the easy start system should make starting very easy. However, if it is NOT easy to start, the easy start system CAN be a prime suspect (rather than assuming the darn thing just hasn't "loosened up" or whatever). 

So now I have two engines. One with E start and a working "easy start" system, one with a pull starter and a non functioning "easy start" system. Since Bailey has decided to not respond to modern communcation techniques (like email or cellular telephone devices), I may (with much trepidation) be forced to disassemble the cams to try and diagnose the damn "easy start" system. But since Bailey doesn't seem to have an engine manual (and I'm not talking about the fake one on their website with a full page about how to change oil LOL) I have no torque specs. BUT!! I have a paramotor that should work now. For that I'm happy (though, I have less money now LOL). Thanks Bailey!! Great engine! Terrible customer service. 

Thanks to everybody who commented and offered advice. Greatly appreciated!

This is a video of the spare engine:

[Yank]

This is a video of the original engine:

[AndySV1K]

What you describe about feeling half resistance and then full resistance is exactly what I feel if I pull my pull starter slowly.

Did you give my starting method a try? or is that what you already do?

Andy.

[Mark Morgan]

On 28/07/2018 at 03:41, Yank said:

This is a video of the original engine:

Yep that be F**Ked

[Yank]

Andy: Yup. As I originally posted, when the engine is heated in the sun, for some reason, it appeared to start finally. but still very difficult. 

1) I'd pull on the ground, occasionally it would start but not twice. 

2) I've pull in every section of the cycle (compression, exhaust, just after first "bump", just after compression stroke, all of it was tried. Nothing made it start as advertised. 

That's why I opted to buy a second hand engine. just to see if there was something "different" about my motor vs a motor that definitely worked. and it appears my "easy" start mechanism doesn't work. I think it started in spite of the easy start mechanism malfunction (warming up the metal seems to make it start occasionally; like a lawn mower or something similar. NOTHING makes it start on my back unless it was already started. Again, this supports my assumption the easy start system is malfunctioning). 

At this point, I'm not really ticked about the engine malfunction. I'm ticked about Bailey not responding to phone or email. Its like, I order a machine from parajet which doesn't work. then the engine manufacturer doesn't respond. what can I do? Parajet didn't make the engine. Bailey did. What can I do (other than buying someone else's engine of course LOL)? And now I"m going through the confusing process of converting a V5E engine from a former hang glider setup to mount and function to my paramotor setup. I'm just havin a grand ole time. sigh...But I appreciate any attempted help from all the commentors. Even knowing someone else knows what the heck I'm talking about is beneficial just for morale reasons. So thanks again errbody. 

 

Mark: YOU my friend are correct.

[AndySV1K]

Just to get this right, you've purchased a brand new paramotor from Parajet with a Bailey engine?

If so, your contract of sale is with Parajet.  Ok they didn't build the engine but they did sell it to you.  That's who you must chase to get service.  You'll need to pressure them to get Bailey to sort the problem out, maybe they will also have better lines of communication to Bailey too.

However I would feel sorry for Parajet on it, they have a brilliant reputation for after sales service in the UK, i'm sure they will do whatever they can, but they may just get stuck in the same position as you, not being able to get anything out of Bailey.

It's utterly criminal, the Bailey motor is so so good, but i'll never touch one again.  If I won the lottery I'd either buy the tooling from him and offer the engine for sale myself with MY ideas of what customer service is, or i'd develop my own version to better it.

 

Andy.

[Yank]

Andy: At this point I'm thinking I was sold a returned motor. I get the feeling the last owner returned it because it didn't "work" and I got it as a hand-me-down. I bought the thing with no expectation of service honestly. I'd read about people not getting responses from Bailey. The one time I got a response I was simply told "talk to a distributor." But I would accept nothing less than a 4 stroke. So, I expected to get no service and was not surprised. I got lucky having someone selling their old motor with less than 5 hours so in the end, all is well. LOL. ITS STILL cheaper than an airplane!  I am still happy with parajet. They make an incredible product. Hopefully I'll never need parts for the frame but, its good to know they are known for after sale service.

Happy news!! finally got the new motor swapped and it works GREAT! The best part is (something I didn't realize before buying the first motor) the e start has an integrated CHARGER!! I"m looking forward to playing around with heated gear. My dream is to fly high and very very cross country. Now that I have a motor that works, couldn't be happier with the engine. and who knows? maybe the old motor "ez" start is fixable. Luckily I can play with it while still flying on the other motor. 

Word of warning for anyone doing this: swapping a pull start for an estart engine is not a direct unbolt/bolt up job. I had to measure, source, and fit new bolts, redo and map a bunch of wiring, swap the exhaust tube, bunch of testing, etc. Its a project; not to the level of a car engine swap, but more than you might expect from such a simple machine. But now, my experience is the push of a button and it just STARTS!! compared to standing there getting exhausted from pulling on that STUPID CORD!! I'm pumped now!  Thanks again to everybody offering ideas. Glad there's a community out there for communicating with. Cheers!

[coolhand]

On 28/07/2018 at 04:41, Yank said:

This is a video of the original engine:

Looks somewhat overengineered........;)

 

Edited August 4, 2018 by coolhand

[Michael Sheeran]

On 04/08/2018 at 21:28, coolhand said:

Looks somewhat overengineered........;)

 

Hi I am so delighted to have found your post regarding V5 being hard to start, I have one and have checked valve clearances, belt tension, and all the usual suspects, I did find the rubber air intake pipe perished where it attaches to the engine intake manifold, it looked perfect on the engine but when inspected closer it was completely cracked through and would have definitely effected the air/fuel mix. But after reading your post and especially after seeing the photos of the decompressor, mine is identical and doesn’t move on compression stroke, it is free to move if you attempt to move it with a screwdriver but it’s mechanical function is not operating correctly, I am going to take it apart next week and inspect it further and will update you. 

I am very interested in the modifications to convert the V5 to V5E and any info, or photos would be greatly appreciated, I had the same experience with Bailey, I contacted them by email phone and every possible method with no reply, if there was a conversion kit I would have bought it as my arms are like a baboons from trying to start the engine on my back. 

Thanks for all your posts and keep me updated if you can. 

Im in Ireland so really appreciate your help

Regards Mick

[Michael Sheeran]

[Yank]

1 hour ago, Michael Sheeran said:

Hi I am so delighted to have found your post regarding V5 being hard to start, I have one and have checked valve clearances, belt tension, and all the usual suspects, I did find the rubber air intake pipe perished where it attaches to the engine intake manifold, it looked perfect on the engine but when inspected closer it was completely cracked through and would have definitely effected the air/fuel mix. But after reading your post and especially after seeing the photos of the decompressor, mine is identical and doesn’t move on compression stroke, it is free to move if you attempt to move it with a screwdriver but it’s mechanical function is not operating correctly, I am going to take it apart next week and inspect it further and will update you. 

I am very interested in the modifications to convert the V5 to V5E and any info, or photos would be greatly appreciated, I had the same experience with Bailey, I contacted them by email phone and every possible method with no reply, if there was a conversion kit I would have bought it as my arms are like a baboons from trying to start the engine on my back. 

Thanks for all your posts and keep me updated if you can. 

Im in Ireland so really appreciate your help

Regards Mick

Hey Mick! I'm going to be unapologetically long winded here so, get ready! So, first, best I can tell the torque on the head bolts is 25ft lbs. I progressively increased the torque on my torque wrench till movent happened at 25f/p. I took my cams off just to see what was going on with the darn thing. 

next, I honestly think the ez start decompressor was working okay...yeah.... So, the way it works, when closed, a knob juts out of the cam causing the rocker to release pressure in the cylinder. as the engine rotates fast, it appears centripetal force causes the ez start mechanism to rotate which rotates the knob open allowing the cam to rotate smoothly. Why one was rotating and not the other on my engines? I'm not sure. but it appears the mechanism was actually working. Why do I say this. because it does rotate freely (but it appears that, to rotate, the engine is supposed to be already running). The only thing the mechanism does is rotate 1/2 turn. There's nothing more to it. it is closed and the knob juts out. as the engine speeds up the mechanism opens and the knob rotates into the cam allowing the rocker to glide over rather then getting pushed up. its a pretty cool idea and allows full compression when the engine is running but less compression when pull starting. That said, if it rotates easily and isn't stuck, it seems that means it works as its supposed to. Once I rig up my original engine now that its back together I'll be finding out if this is true or not. 

a word of advice, I wouldn't take it apart because ensuring the timing chain stays aligned is tricky. Not impossible, but its a bit of a pain. definitely mark it with a grease marker before taking the cam apart (I failed to do this but, I set the piston to TDC, replaced the head, and aligned the cam to TDC and reassembled everything so it should work if it "works". If you do take it apart, you will see that the "knob" and the thing that you rotated with your screwdriver are one piece. and theres a spring that closes it when at rest.  That's basically the entire "ez start" system. 

Might I suggest a good carb clean? It appears in mine, the carb was blocked at the pilot jet. I had sprayed the jets with carb cleaner originally however, it appears that wasn't enough. So I soaked the jets overnight and sprayed em out with compressed air. after that, jets are clean. Haven't yet tested em since the dip carb clean but, I'm hoping things will work. 

Does yours EVER start? Mine would periodically but certainly not easy and certainly not consistently...and not often... But it DID occasionally turn over. That's why I'm thinking it was actually the carb. Finally, if I could go back, I would have rigged up an engine stand so I could start it off my back. Until it does start easy, don't even try it on your back. Gorilla arms don't overcome cylinder compression. Not for very long anyway. 

Now, as for the e start conversion. interestingly enough, the thing is built like a motorcycle. it has a charger (stator and everything) inside unlike the 2 stroke e-start motors (electric clothing anyone!! and no dead batteries either. rock solid platform this thing). However, this makes it a full project to convert. Its not just a matter of throwing on a starter. So, if you are looking to do a conversion (it seems it wouldn't be impossible), I suggest buying a cheap broken engine and transplanting the starting components. You really need to make sure you get the right parts. Easier still? Do what I did and just replace your engine with an Estart engine. I got it second hand for 3000$ from one of those facebook groups. 

Finally, before you take it apart (if you haven't already), do everything you can to ensure your jets are clean. If you know for a fact there's no fuel restriction, your intake is intact, you are getting spark, and compression, only then would I suggest breaking open the cams (for me, all that did was help me understand how the ez start system actually works so I can stop assuming it was at fault). I kind of wish I'd have gone further with my carbs but, after so much failure to launch, I didn't care, I just wanted something that worked. 

Looking back, this is what I should have done:

1) carbs 100% clean. Take em and get em hydrosonically cleaned if its an option. 100% clean means 100% sure its not a fuel flow issue. Test the float height while yer at it...

2) test the spark with a spark tester (I did do this but, as we all know in a 4 stroke, its like, NEVER the spark plug. LOL. but it could be something else in the ignition system)

3) etc (all the other stuff you probably did already...you know the drill.  Just make sure for sure for sure each part works like it should). rig it up on a motor stand and start test starting it

4) if it still doesn't start relatively easily, get an e start motor and do a swap. Basically, at this point, you know nothing isn't working, its just a PITA to start on the back. You can either just keep trying, or start over with an E start motor. 

5) if none available, find a broken motor and do a conversion. (this is the most work so, it should be your last option)

I hope the above is helpful. For me, I"m pretty sure it actually came down to dirty carbs (yes. shame on me. LOL). But after flying it, I'm actually happy I jumped the gun. The E start is AWESOME! Lemme know how things go for you. 

(I really want to know if Bailey thinks all communication still happens in person. Like, email IS actually a thing these days. Not sure why they stonewall all their customers. Its a shame really).

[Michael Sheeran]

On 18/08/2018 at 14:53, Yank said:

Hey Mick! I'm going to be unapologetically long winded here so, get ready! So, first, best I can tell the torque on the head bolts is 25ft lbs. I progressively increased the torque on my torque wrench till movent happened at 25f/p. I took my cams off just to see what was going on with the darn thing. 

next, I honestly think the ez start decompressor was working okay...yeah.... So, the way it works, when closed, a knob juts out of the cam causing the rocker to release pressure in the cylinder. as the engine rotates fast, it appears centripetal force causes the ez start mechanism to rotate which rotates the knob open allowing the cam to rotate smoothly. Why one was rotating and not the other on my engines? I'm not sure. but it appears the mechanism was actually working. Why do I say this. because it does rotate freely (but it appears that, to rotate, the engine is supposed to be already running). The only thing the mechanism does is rotate 1/2 turn. There's nothing more to it. it is closed and the knob juts out. as the engine speeds up the mechanism opens and the knob rotates into the cam allowing the rocker to glide over rather then getting pushed up. its a pretty cool idea and allows full compression when the engine is running but less compression when pull starting. That said, if it rotates easily and isn't stuck, it seems that means it works as its supposed to. Once I rig up my original engine now that its back together I'll be finding out if this is true or not. 

a word of advice, I wouldn't take it apart because ensuring the timing chain stays aligned is tricky. Not impossible, but its a bit of a pain. definitely mark it with a grease marker before taking the cam apart (I failed to do this but, I set the piston to TDC, replaced the head, and aligned the cam to TDC and reassembled everything so it should work if it "works". If you do take it apart, you will see that the "knob" and the thing that you rotated with your screwdriver are one piece. and theres a spring that closes it when at rest.  That's basically the entire "ez start" system. 

Might I suggest a good carb clean? It appears in mine, the carb was blocked at the pilot jet. I had sprayed the jets with carb cleaner originally however, it appears that wasn't enough. So I soaked the jets overnight and sprayed em out with compressed air. after that, jets are clean. Haven't yet tested em since the dip carb clean but, I'm hoping things will work. 

Does yours EVER start? Mine would periodically but certainly not easy and certainly not consistently...and not often... But it DID occasionally turn over. That's why I'm thinking it was actually the carb. Finally, if I could go back, I would have rigged up an engine stand so I could start it off my back. Until it does start easy, don't even try it on your back. Gorilla arms don't overcome cylinder compression. Not for very long anyway. 

Now, as for the e start conversion. interestingly enough, the thing is built like a motorcycle. it has a charger (stator and everything) inside unlike the 2 stroke e-start motors (electric clothing anyone!! and no dead batteries either. rock solid platform this thing). However, this makes it a full project to convert. Its not just a matter of throwing on a starter. So, if you are looking to do a conversion (it seems it wouldn't be impossible), I suggest buying a cheap broken engine and transplanting the starting components. You really need to make sure you get the right parts. Easier still? Do what I did and just replace your engine with an Estart engine. I got it second hand for 3000$ from one of those facebook groups. 

Finally, before you take it apart (if you haven't already), do everything you can to ensure your jets are clean. If you know for a fact there's no fuel restriction, your intake is intact, you are getting spark, and compression, only then would I suggest breaking open the cams (for me, all that did was help me understand how the ez start system actually works so I can stop assuming it was at fault). I kind of wish I'd have gone further with my carbs but, after so much failure to launch, I didn't care, I just wanted something that worked. 

Looking back, this is what I should have done:

1) carbs 100% clean. Take em and get em hydrosonically cleaned if its an option. 100% clean means 100% sure its not a fuel flow issue. Test the float height while yer at it...

2) test the spark with a spark tester (I did do this but, as we all know in a 4 stroke, its like, NEVER the spark plug. LOL. but it could be something else in the ignition system)

3) etc (all the other stuff you probably did already...you know the drill.  Just make sure for sure for sure each part works like it should). rig it up on a motor stand and start test starting it

4) if it still doesn't start relatively easily, get an e start motor and do a swap. Basically, at this point, you know nothing isn't working, its just a PITA to start on the back. You can either just keep trying, or start over with an E start motor. 

5) if none available, find a broken motor and do a conversion. (this is the most work so, it should be your last option)

I hope the above is helpful. For me, I"m pretty sure it actually came down to dirty carbs (yes. shame on me. LOL). But after flying it, I'm actually happy I jumped the gun. The E start is AWESOME! Lemme know how things go for you. 

(I really want to know if Bailey thinks all communication still happens in person. Like, email IS actually a thing these days. Not sure why they stonewall all their customers. Its a shame really).

Hi thanks for all the info, I will definitely check out carbs, I took a really good look at decompression system and it is definitely working correctly, albeit it still is tough to turn over, and thanks for info on head torque, I almost got caught with chain coming off it’s sprocket but luckily got it in time. I will wait until I get the replacement air intake pipe and then a floor stand to assist me with starting the engine, and take it from there, probably do a carb clean  as well, I will let you know how I get on. 

Regards Mick 

[Jacoolw]

Hi Yank

I had the exact same problem with my v5 Zenith when I first got it. It did get easier to start after it had about 10 hours on the clock.

Jaco