Learn abroad or in UK?

[CrockhamHillbilly]

Hi! I've just joined the site, mainly as a lurker to find out more about paramotoring! Having just moved to Kent, I'll need to wait until I have some more money for training and equipment before I take the plunge. Just wondered if anyone has any experience learning abroad? It seems to be a lot cheaper than learning in the UK and I guess the weather is more reliable, i.e. in Spain.

Also, is there anyone in the South East who's agreeable to meeting up for a chat / observe you fly please?

Thanks in advance!

[AndyB]

I learnt in Spain. Yes, weather much nicer!

Key thing is to look at what accreditation the training has. I trained under the APPI programme which qualifies for global insurance thru AXA in Germany/Austria.

If you want insurance through AXA in the UK you will need to follow BHPA approved training.

 

[CrockhamHillbilly]

Ok thanks for the info! Did you go to flyspain? I'm leaning towards that early next year - combine it with a little break abroad  

[AndyB]

I used Skyschool who do Uk in July/August and overseas training the rest of the year. I think Skyschool don't do Spain now, moved to Italy. 

[Hann__]

Andy, did you train at Aerodromo Ordis?

 

[AndyB]

Yes, Ordis and the beach at Magrat del Mar.

[admin (Simon W)]

You can also do the PMC course in the UK and get our own club's insurance  

We (re-teach) LOT'S of people that have 'leaned' in Spain because they booked a week off and the weather was too thermic to fly. You then have to follow them to wherever they are in the world to finish your course. ( at the moment I think that is Oman ) 

On our books at this very moment are 6 people who have already done a course in Spain, mainly due to a lack of confidence or lack of skill. (to be clear, these are people who have paid us to teach them AFTER completing a course in Spain.)

We also get many people 'popping in' after a course in Spain as they don't have the confidence to fly on there own, most have not used the trimmers or tip steering either, which I think is an insane point to 'sign someone off' These are basically people who have ran out of funds or the will to spend them and trying to 'learn by osmosis' ( I won't lie, this is not my favoured person to have on our airfield ) 

Also, the AXA policy is a generic policy available to ANYONE who want's it. NO training is required. The other two policies can only be purchased by people who have completed either the BHPA or the PMC course.  

My advice would be to take your time, learn in the country that you live in, learn about the weather that you will have to fly in when ready.

Our training provides an unlimited number of days to the student pilot to allow this confidence to build while at the same time building your skill base and teaching you about the UK weather and finding your personal weather window in the comfort of a learning environment as apposed to a farmers field on your own.

You are welcome to pop up to Membury, where on any given flyable day I am sure you will be able to talk to any one of the 6 people mentioned above yourself. 

Welcome to the Paramotor Club and whichever route you decide to take, I am sure you will enjoy it!!!  

Edited: to add that this is not a dig at any person or company. The people we see are from a varied array of schools overseas. The main reason for my post was to highlight that it is far from 'the magical solution' and often will end up costing more time and money when adding 're-training'

SW

 

[AndyB]

Simon, a few things not quite right there!

Skychool were looking to move to Italy while I was training with them at Ordis/Magrat. I was looking at the proposed new sites with their instructor, while sat on the beach where you say they were banned from!

The AXA insurance is NOT open to anyone. They insisted on seeing a completed training cert from a school they have approved, before they would insure me. Their application form has a section where your APPI or BHPA registration number must be entered now! I know there are some people who took out this insurance before they introduced the qualification requirement.

Yes, it would be great to do first flights on your own, when not on your own! However, when I finished training I had flown fully on my own, with no assistance what so ever. At some point you just need to go it alone. My car broke down on the way back from Spain....my first flight truly on my own was on a beach in Perignan, France! 

The issue I have with flying on my own (cos no one else flies up here!) is that further progress can only be made from the book......and going to PMC fly-ins  

Andy

 

 

[admin (Simon W)]

I am not suggesting for a second that this is the 'norm' Just that it happens rather allot (more than it should in my opinion) 

It was the Mayor who wanted proof that the PMC had nothing to do with the school before we were allowed to use the site for the holiday this year  

SW

[AndyB]

When training at Malgrat we had a little difficulty with a Belgian group who insisted on flying low and close to the town all the time. They were constantly roaring up and down the beach doing wing tip touch turns. We were doing simple beginner stuff and always down by the industrial estate near Punta de la Tordera, well away from the town.  It would be easy to get mixed up!

[CrockhamHillbilly]

Thanks for the opinions gents, I would prefer to learn in the UK but the one concern I have is the lack of poor weather. Simon, I'll be in touch soon about your school - thanks for the input!

[AndyB]

4 hours ago, CrockhamHillbilly said:

Thanks for the opinions gents, I would prefer to learn in the UK but the one concern I have is the lack of poor weather. Simon, I'll be in touch soon about your school - thanks for the input!

I would be more concerned about the lack of nice weather

 

[Piperactive]

As I sit here in late July in England with a gale blowing outside and rain on the way I thought it useful to make a couple of points on Simon’s post of 20 July.

Where to train -

1. Weather: Concentrated training is important when learning new skills. So, as a beginner it is important to have a sustained period of reliable training weather in order to become competent at wing handling and use of the engine. It is also important that you have the best chance of calm weather for the first few flights: This is simply not reliably available in the UK. A lot of UK schools ( light aircraft, parachuting, Paragliding and Paramotoring ) bring out the old chestnut that you should train in the weather you will fly in at home: This is nonsense. You should train in a climate that gets you the most concentrated training time. (I fell for the UK line when doing my light aircraft training and so spent over a year getting my licence when I could have achieved the same in about 10 days in Florida, I made the same mistake with Paragliding and spent a week on the ground learning nothing much as it was too windy/wet to even ground handle. I learnt my lesson and have since done paragliding, paramotoring, sky diving and sub aqua courses almost exclusively abroad.)

2. Instructors: Instructors need to be regularly training students, preferably year round, and this is not possible in the UK because of the weather. Instructors operating abroad with better weather or changing locations as the weather window dictates are training students almost daily and so are fully and daily actively current with the (possibly dangerous) quirks of student behaviour. This is why many excellent UK instructors spent so much of their time abroad.

3.Equipment: Students need to have access to appropriate kit with spares and repair facilities readily available - All this demands significant investment from the school. A foreign based (benign weather) school with a high through put of students has generally better financial resources and so a higher business incentive to replace equipment as and when needed.

4. Cost. Time has a value for all of us and most have to take holiday leave to train. To complete a one week course abroad at the cost of a £30-£60 Ryanair flight is a lot cheaper than spending months commuting to wet and windy UK sites on the off chance you might be able to train.

What you get from training courses. A beginner will spend about a week becoming safe with wing handling and dealing with the engine and will manage a few supervised flights. A beginners course is a heavy workload and  so good instructors concentrate on making you safe for flying and safe in benign air conditions - anything more would be dangerous for most people. After that you either join a UK club for further monitoring as you build your skills or, as I did, go on to complete intermediary and advanced courses (abroad for the reasons given above).

Intermediate courses consolidate the skills learnt before and introduce further flying techniques, such as cross country flights, use of speed bar, trimmers and wing tip steering. A point here from Simon’s post - as you cannot safely  land your wing with trimmers out you must be at a sufficiently adept level to be able to manage trimmer controls calmly and to be able to automatically reconfigure the wing for landing ( especially in the event of an engine failure) - it is most unlikely that a beginner, in his first weeks training, would be able to do this reliably and safely.

Advanced courses build on previous skills and teach more advanced skills which are best learnt only in the hands of expert instructors.

I have completed 4 training courses ( 3 in Spain, 1 in Italy) and 2 overseas expeditions with SkySchool and have a third expedition with them this winter in Oman. (I have also done about 5 weeks Paragliding with them in the Alps & Spain and 2 SIV courses with them in Turkey).

Insurance is a simple issue - get an insurer who will pay out if you have an accident - Axa & BHPA both do the job you pay them for. 

[AndyB]

Can't agree more. I trained with Skyschool in Spain, then came back to the UK and could not fly for 2 months! Went back to Spain.  

 

[admin (Simon W)]

14 hours ago, Piperactive said:

As I sit here in late July in England with a gale blowing outside and rain on the way I thought it useful to make a couple of points on Simon’s post of 20 July.

Where to train -

1. Weather: Concentrated training is important when learning new skills. So, as a beginner it is important to have a sustained period of reliable training weather in order to become competent at wing handling and use of the engine. It is also important that you have the best chance of calm weather for the first few flights: This is simply not reliably available in the UK. A lot of UK schools ( light aircraft, parachuting, Paragliding and Paramotoring ) bring out the old chestnut that you should train in the weather you will fly in at home: This is nonsense. You should train in a climate that gets you the most concentrated training time. (I fell for the UK line when doing my light aircraft training and so spent over a year getting my licence when I could have achieved the same in about 10 days in Florida, I made the same mistake with Paragliding and spent a week on the ground learning nothing much as it was too windy/wet to even ground handle. I learnt my lesson and have since done paragliding, paramotoring, sky diving and sub aqua courses almost exclusively abroad.)

Is your opinion. The 'intensive' training is not the opinion of many far more experienced aviation professionals (I am currently in study working towards my helicopter instructors rating) 'Intensive' training is 100% considered to be a very bad thing. I guess the CAA examiners know best. 

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2. Instructors: Instructors need to be regularly training students, preferably year round, and this is not possible in the UK because of the weather. Instructors operating abroad with better weather or changing locations as the weather window dictates are training students almost daily and so are fully and daily actively current with the (possibly dangerous) quirks of student behaviour. This is why many excellent UK instructors spent so much of their time abroad.

Thats just BS lol we do  All year around for the last 12 years in the UK with no problems at all. I would argue that we have taught more people to become pilots than any other single school in fact. 

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3.Equipment: Students need to have access to appropriate kit with spares and repair facilities readily available - All this demands significant investment from the school. A foreign based (benign weather) school with a high through put of students has generally better financial resources and so a higher business incentive to replace equipment as and when needed.

We have 3 brand new Parajet's 8 new wings, 10 harnesses, 8 radios, 10 helmets. Many of the students going to Spain have purchased kit PRE training as part of a free training deal. We don't like people buying kit until they have had at least 1 flight. 

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4. Cost. Time has a value for all of us and most have to take holiday leave to train. To complete a one week course abroad at the cost of a £30-£60 Ryanair flight is a lot cheaper than spending months commuting to wet and windy UK sites on the off chance you might be able to train.

Surely its the end result that matters? Also I literally signed a guy up today who thought this (honestly!!!) Already been to Spain for a week!!! Also this is not how we work in the UK. People book in, and then we teach then to start reading the weather (that they will ultimately fly in) they call the evening before any day they want to do some training  I tell people not to book time off and to save it for when they can fly!!!

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What you get from training courses. A beginner will spend about a week becoming safe with wing handling and dealing with the engine and will manage a few supervised flights. A beginners course is a heavy workload and  so good instructors concentrate on making you safe for flying and safe in benign air conditions - anything more would be dangerous for most people. After that you either join a UK club for further monitoring as you build your skills or, as I did, go on to complete intermediary and advanced courses (abroad for the reasons given above).

You get that your admitting here that a 7 days course is not enough right?

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Intermediate courses consolidate the skills learnt before and introduce further flying techniques, such as cross country flights, use of speed bar, trimmers and wing tip steering. A point here from Simon’s post - as you cannot safely  land your wing with trimmers out you must be at a sufficiently adept level to be able to manage trimmer controls calmly and to be able to automatically reconfigure the wing for landing ( especially in the event of an engine failure) - it is most unlikely that a beginner, in his first weeks training, would be able to do this reliably and safely.

A knowledge of every aspect of the aircraft being piloted is a number 1 in ALL aviation, its a no brainer!!!! This comment is actually a little worrying for me to read. and again, confirms that a weeks training is not enough. 

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Advanced courses build on previous skills and teach more advanced skills which are best learnt only in the hands of expert instructors.

I have completed 4 training courses ( 3 in Spain, 1 in Italy) and 2 overseas expeditions with SkySchool and have a third expedition with them this winter in Oman. (I have also done about 5 weeks Paragliding with them in the Alps & Spain and 2 SIV courses with them in Turkey).

Insurance is a simple issue - get an insurer who will pay out if you have an accident - Axa & BHPA both do the job you pay them for. 

 

Thanks for your 1st post, clearly you have made some effort to post it (whoever you are) 

SW

[AndyB]

I have to say Simon that I had a great time training in Spain. I did 2 separate weeks to get to APPI pilot level.....the minimum suggested for flying solo. I did 15 flights, including 2 cross-country. Trimmers were brought in (well out really) on flight 5. Training included swing suppression (fore/aft and side/side), spiral turns and spot landings.....finishing with high alt engine off landing within 5 m of target! The training was all very professional and the instructors were amazing.

The thing is, I think that any good training school will be, well good! There appears to be an unnecessary amount of slagging off that I think should be reserved for the truly bad schools or trainers.

One example could be your comment re Skyschool and Malgrat. You were wrong. Completely. I spoke with them after your comment.

It would seem better to promote the training schools that have been shown to provide robust training. It may just be that you are equally good!

 

[admin (Simon W)]

Again, this is not personal against a business or person.. its the idea that Spain offers a magical week of turning people into pilots that is misleading potential pilots that get's me. I know this to be happening as it effects me daily!  

You are one of the MANY who have had a great time out there, most likely aided by your own ability to learn 'quickly' 

My point is that there are also MANY people (I think more) that feel as though they are not safe and need more training. It's a MASSIVE number and as mentioned above, a large percentage of our ongoing customer base which in it's self has to be something towards proving my point? I did not make that happen... It happen to us. 

SW

 

[allrightscud]

If you're near a training centre and can afford to commit to the time to do UK weather dependant training then it might be worth it, but in my experience its slow progress especially if its a weekend only operation like most minority sports or activities seem to be in the UK.

Personally I wouldn't do any training in the UK for a sports qualification. I wasted years trying to get to Cat 8 for skydiving and really wish I had opted for AFF. I was persuaded by similar arguments as Simons to persevere in the UK, weather work and restricted to weekend clubs all hindered my progress. A weeks commitment and a holiday in Florida, Spain or France would have seen my Cat 8 in a week.

I did a hang-gliding course in the peak district years ago. There were a couple of lads who'd booked the training week for the 3rd year in a row and still hadn't got off the ground because of weather. I had one day of practical handling of a glider out of 6. I was entitled to book an other week to make up for the lost days training but it would have meant committing to an other week in the peak district and hoping the weather was good as well as the expense of travel and accommodation. I gave up on hang gliding. I later had a holiday in Florida and found a little oasis called Wallaby Ranch. A tow hang gliding school. Beautiful place. I hadn't intended to go flying but I managed to fit it hang gliding training in with a holiday. I got up at 5.30 went to the ranch, flew until it got too bumpy and then went to the parks and touristy stuff after. I popped back in the evening for further training and flying. Worked out perfectly and I got a hang gliding tow qualification. I flew more in 2 hours there than I did in 6 days in the peak district.

I looked at paragliding in the UK but again the prospect of parawaiting didn't appeal. I went to Verbier in August had a great time with my mates, got to fly from 6000' to 2000' over the Verbier landing in a Hidi-esque hay meadow after a 20 min flight and completed 9 more that week. Completed my EP and 70% of my CP. There is no way I would have had that sort of flight time or training if I had stuck to training in Scotland.

After returning and looking to complete my CP training at home I realised I was back to a similar situation as my skydiving training. Weather windows, weekend flying and slow progress as well as lengthy travel to flying sites. A big time commitment.

That's when I looked at crossing over to he dark side and doing a Paramotor converstion.

I looked at all my options including training in the UK. There are a couple of local pilots who trained with a reasonably local instructor successfully but I didn't want to risk the weather and potential delays that are inevitable in Scotland. I looked around read reviews and found a BHPA school who operated abroad. I went to Spain, trained, flew and got signed off well within the week. I came home on the Saturday, found a motor I liked on the Sunday morning on the internet drove to Stoke on the Thursday to collect it, had a new wing delivered on Saturday morning and was flying on my own equipment on the Saturday afternoon a week after I completed my course.

I truly don't think I would have been flying as much last summer if I had trained in the UK.

What you need to ask yourself is how much time are you willing to invest in UK training. If you're local to a school and it operates 7 days a week to take advantage of the weather windows and its located on the site you'll be flying from once your trained then it sounds like a great option. If not, I would seriously consider going abroad. If your having to travel and stay over to train in the UK you're as well getting the weather and a bit of a holiday out of it as well.  Where ever you go do proper research. make sure they're training to a recognised standard and will make sure you can fly solo once your home and will offer impartial advice on kit. I was given the "hard sell" for a miniplane when I completed my course. I trained on both the mini plane and parajet V3 and much preferred the V3. It was far more comfortable and had more thrust to get me air born. I decided not to buy from my training school as I thought he was too biased considering my weight pushing the mini plane.

[CrockhamHillbilly]

Thanks for all the advice, I'm leaning towards doing some paragliding training locally before doing a PPG course abroad next year, possibly Spain. By then I'll have built up some core skills and had the opportunity for some good paramotor time before returning to the UK where I can buy the right equipment for me. A handy local club or flying pals would be a bonus but I appreciate this is a specialist sport and flight opportunities are not abundant in SE England, it seems. I have to say I've been underwhelmed by the lack of response from UK schools so far, so I'm grateful for all of your experiences.

[admin (Simon W)]

Don't be underwhelmed. I have taken much poo as a result of my post, but I do feel strongly about it. Although I know support of my view is there from conversations with the people who have been around for a while.... I don't expect them to post and take the same Sh**. 

I 'stuck my head out of the water' to say something which would annoy people (not with the intent to do so) but it needed to be said. I am fed up with teaching (again) half taught people who come to us with a negative vibe having been 'miss sold' a dream. It's a simple as that for me :--)

I do though love the part where that dream comes true for them  

SW