Tornado 280 paramotor engine from Air Conception

[Sarrfox]

What happened to the reviews?  Many are saying that there are problems with the Tornado.  Aviator PPG stopped selling AC products.  Weighing 260 pounds and just starting out, this motor seemed ideal.  What's the deal at this point for the Tornado?  Reliable, great machine or not??? Please comment!

[AndyB]

I have a Nitro in the UK and a Tornado in the south of Spain. I got the Tornado because at 95 kg and unable to walk much I was struggling with take offs in low wind on the soft sand. The Tornado solved that problem. The ONLY issue I have had in over 100 hours (25 on Tornado) is the relay failed on the Nitro.

The Tornado looks very similar to the Nitro. It is not an immediately obvious difference, unless you use the 3 blade prop for higher thrust...which I do. Because of the high thrust I had to learn to not just slam full throttle on when taking off, the result was lying flat on my face. I also had to learn to power launch differently with the Tornado, because the prop sound is so different.

I love both of them. Nitro great for grass/hard ground, Tornado better for soft sand......and my trike which I made for when I give up foot launching.  

[Sarrfox]

Thank you Andy!  It just seems so strange to have a machine get soo much hype and then nothing!  I thought people would be jumping at the opportunity to share their experiences and whether they matched the hype!  And to discuss it's reliability.  I've lost my enthusiasm about it and am looking at Parajets and the Moster 185 now.  I really wanted to know how well the Tornado is doing and wanted to be excited about flying one. 

[Dragonfly1983]

On 24/03/2019 at 18:15, CaptEZ said:

I’m planning on buying this engine and a Dudek wing. Is it possible to go to Poland and buy this directly from the manufacturer? I’m an airline pilot and travel for free and would like to fly in Poland for fun as well...Thanks

Hello,

I just read your post. I live in Poland near Dudek factory but I'm not Polish-man. I fly with Nitro (Polish factory Techno Fly call it Octagon).

If you are still interested to buy engine from the factory, I can share my experience.  

Best

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Dragonfly1983

[Dragonfly1983]

On 30/08/2019 at 06:03, Sarrfox said:

Thank you Andy!  It just seems so strange to have a machine get soo much hype and then nothing!  I thought people would be jumping at the opportunity to share their experiences and whether they matched the hype!  And to discuss it's reliability.  I've lost my enthusiasm about it and am looking at Parajets and the Moster 185 now.  I really wanted to know how well the Tornado is doing and wanted to be excited about flying one. 

I believe the ''so much hype"  came from the US Aviator - they are nice guys good in marketing, have huge costumers and speak English. But once they decided to change to Parajets...Tornado hype diminished rapidly.

I fly Nitro directly bought with a visit to the Polish factory at Rokitno (Rokitno 2, 05-870), I spent some time there and I saw those guys are serious about production, but marketing is another issue, especially when they sell mainly with a French company Air Conception...and it is not about English language marketing neither here in Poland nor in France.

Knowing the Nitro engine quality and reliability I would not hesitate to buy Tornado...just Nitro is good enough for my style of flying, including tandems from time to time

Edited November 16, 2019 by Dragonfly1983

[AndyB]

On 30/08/2019 at 05:03, Sarrfox said:

Thank you Andy!  It just seems so strange to have a machine get soo much hype and then nothing!  I thought people would be jumping at the opportunity to share their experiences and whether they matched the hype!  And to discuss it's reliability.  I've lost my enthusiasm about it and am looking at Parajets and the Moster 185 now.  I really wanted to know how well the Tornado is doing and wanted to be excited about flying one. 

Just seen your post. I flew 4 Parajets before the AC machines. Hated Parajet. Unreliable, staff too busy/couldn't get stuff right and machines VERY heavy. AC super lightweight and very reliable!...I am at 140 hours with no failures now.

[admin (Simon W)]

The Nitros are not bullet proof. They have a number of issues the same as EVERY other paramotor in the world. 

My personal view on the Nitro and Parajet differs massively to yours. 

SW

 

[AndyB]

All 2 strokes can be run lean, get hot and burn holes. However, I have never needed to adjust my Nitro/Tornado mixture settings from where I originally set them. The Parajets always needed tweaking. Each tweak had the potential to get it wrong.

Most of the issues I have heard with the Nitro/Tornado are not machine issues, but operator issues. The blow priming is new to most people and getting it wrong means the machine will not start. Once you know how to do it, it starts first time, every time. Mine both start first time, on old fuel, after over 2 months with out being used.

Parajet stopped doing Polini - because it was so unreliable. Now they have Moster, with lots of broken exhausts.

Also, do you sell one of those Paramotor makes, or do special deals...with just one company? 

 

[Steve]

Ask yourself why Parajet sell considerably more paramotors than Air Conception Andy. Your description bears no similiarity to my own ten years of dealing with the company. 

As Simon said, all motors have their problems but Parajet have the advantage of being able to choose the best motors to go with their superb choice of chassis plus they have awesome customer support so even if you have an engine problem they do their best to look after you. 

I find it strange that you constantly praise Air Conception but slag off everything else. I have had Parajets for ten years and am ever more happy with that decision. I considered an Air Conception a couple of years ago but chose Parajet again. There's no competition in many respects, as far as I'm concerned. 

[custom-vince]

Fly what you enjoy. Thats my answer.

Same old discussions, for every point of view there is another alternative point of view. as an example, Steve above says Parajet has the advantage of being able to choose the best motors. I could argue that nitro and tornado are the best and they can't choose those. lol. but in more serious terms, yes for sure with Parajet you have a wider choice of engines, but really I see only the Moster variants are viable choices. That can be good and bad,  as when it comes to warranty, with Air Conception it is one company that covers all, with other manufacturers its then a negotiation between the frame manufacturer and the engine supplier, it is a line I have walked in the past. I had problems with Polini warranty over repeated holed pistons on those thor200s, in the end I paid for a customers new engine myself out of sheer embarrassment and the need to offer a service that was repeatedly being failed by the engine manufacturer.

I think its great we have such a wide choice of kit to suit every pilots needs. We all start with some idea or a list of things which are important to us in a paramotor. Which ever one ticks the most of your boxes is the winner for you. It is different for everyone.

Light weight, simplicity, reliability are my top ticks. I currently fly a sub 18kg nitro, fold down frame which fits a suitcase. I have also had a tornado but I didn't need the power for my weight, wing size and style of flying. Previously I have had a number of different machines over the years including a Parajet Moster. I have no regrets on any past paramotor, they led me to learn what I value for my style.

What is important to me, is the pilot gets the right machine for them so they have more fun for longer as thats all we want, we fly for fun.

Edited November 18, 2019 by custom-vince

[admin (Simon W)]

The Atom 80's engines are also selling like hot cakes ATM. 

It's an amazingly smooth engine and at around 2.5l-3.0l per hour and good for 100KG pilots (90%+ of the people we teach) 

I also would like to correct you on your comment about dealing with frame and engine manufactures... 

You guys with the 200's collectively decided to contact Polini directly on the facebook group if you remember. You were also the first bunch to buy the unknown engine. (known as an early adopter) as an early adopter, you take a risk, the new Samsung is a great example of this. 

I have had over the last 17 years 18 different Parajet's and I have never ever spoken to an engine manufacturer as a consumer.

The essence of your post though is a good one

Get a machine that you are happy with, one that you like the look of, or feel of, or both.. even how it sounds if that's your thing. Just make sure you like it or even love it and enjoy flying it.  

SW

[paraflyer17]

10 hours ago, admin (Simon W) said:

The Atom 80's engines are also selling like hot cakes ATM. 

It's an amazingly smooth engine and at around 2.5l-3.0l per hour and good for 100KG pilots (90%+ of the people we teach) 

 

Is that 100Kg including kit or 100Kg plus kit?

I really like the look of these but at 85-90Kgs out of bed in the morning I deduced from reading around that it would be a no-go.

[chrsfrwll]

7 minutes ago, paraflyer17 said:

Is that 100Kg including kit or 100Kg plus kit?

I really like the look of these but at 85-90Kgs out of bed in the morning I deduced from reading around that it would be a no-go.

I'm 85kg (naked weight) at the moment and having no problems getting off the ground with one, even in nil wind.

[paraflyer17]

4 minutes ago, chrsfrwll said:

I'm 85kg (naked weight) at the moment and having no problems getting off the ground with one 

Might be worth considering again then. What machine is that on? Does it need to be something light or is it also OK on say a parajet V3?

[chrsfrwll]

2 minutes ago, paraflyer17 said:

Might be worth considering again then. What machine is that on? Does it need to be something light or is it also OK on say a parajet V3?

I've a Parajet Maverick and Dudek Universal 1.1 28m. Oh and with a 17l tank, which more often than not is pretty full.

[paraflyer17]

2 minutes ago, chrsfrwll said:

I've a Parajet Maverick and Dudek Universal 1.1 28m. Oh and with a 17l tank, which more often than not is pretty full.

Thanks, that helps a lot. Definitely something to reconsider then.

[simonhunny]

4 hours ago, paraflyer17 said:

Is that 100Kg including kit or 100Kg plus kit?

I really like the look of these but at 85-90Kgs out of bed in the morning I deduced from reading around that it would be a no-go.

I am 88kg naked & love the atom 80, works great even on my smallest wing hadron xx 20m, on a skymax expedition frame it comes in at 19kg empty. I also have a moster plus, which comes in at 25kg on a starmax, lately I have preferred the atom as its so light & quiet

[Varocketry]

The AC Nitro is very reliable by all accounts of those flying here and from owner of a large school in FLA.

The AC Tornado 280 is a powerful motor at a lite weight.  I changed from Parajet 200 and shaved about 20 lbs carrying weight.

the AC Tornado has head bolt problems though in that the lower two bolts , nearer the exhaust, do not hold tension and loosen up ever 1-2 hrs flight time.  Easily remedied by retorquing to recommended 23 Nm before each flight.

if you don’t and have an engine failure , the owner will not honor warranty saying you didn’t maintain the motor and it went rich - causing damage.

No recognition of head bolt problem - in fact, outright denial.  4 of 4 Tornados here had this failure between 30-45 hrs. 
 

They’ve introduced a new XC head with lower compression as a fix but it’s unclear how that solves the bolt loosening problem.

No issues with the Nitro.

 

 

[AndyB]

My Tornado is amazing and has had no issues....other than the recall to change the piston/rings for a different type. I often check head torque as both the AC machines use an O ring for the seal. If there is any leakage this gets fried and destroyed quickly, so cannot just be torqued up. Checking torque of 4 nuts literally takes a few seconds.

I'm not sure how not checking the head bolts can cause an engine failure, it just causes a leak and needs a £3 O ring to fix it. I'm also not sure how "going rich" would cause an engine failure. Over time, running rich causes excess carbon and will increase scoring of the nikasil cylinder lining, but again will not cause failure.

Going lean on any machine will make it run hot and then cause engine failure (hole melted through piston usually). Using the AC carb settings puts the machines very rich and in no danger. My Nitro used to use 4.25 lph before I tuned it. It now runs at 2.7 to 2.8 lph. I use CHT gauge to ensure no nasty temps going on and get max of 230 C on full power for 1 minute (very rare that I do that). In normal use it runs 190 to 210 C. I checked with AC that this fuel consumption is possible and the answer was yes.

[Julien4788]

for my own curiosity how much does a AC Tornado 280 vs nitro 200 cost ?

[jon15]

Andy, hi,

That is an impressive difference in fuel consumption.  What tuning did you do to the carb to get that fuel consumption?  What are the positions of the low and high screws on the carb?

cheers

Jon

 

[AndyB]

8 hours ago, Julien4788 said:

for my own curiosity how much does a AC Tornado 280 vs nitro 200 cost ?

Virtually the same cost.

[AndyB]

The main thing was to set the pop off pressure much lower than it was. Mine is now at 14 psi to lift and it re-seats at 12 psi. I had 4 carbs (including the Nitro) and I tested them all. Pop off varied from 18 to 28 psi and 2 of them did not re-seat properly.

After setting to this lower pressure, my machine was running lean. It would not run properly in the bottom half of revs and would bog down when trying to accelerate. I now have both screws at 1 and an 1/8 turns out....and it is till just a little lean at lower end.

Interestingly, AC now sell a pop off spring set to 14 psi !

[Julien4788]

On 03/12/2020 at 03:54, AndyB said:

Virtually the same cost.

how much?

[Jim Sutton]

I fly the Tornado 280 engine and can confirm it has noticeably more thrust than the smaller Nitro cousin.

I am a heavy pilot whose flown on Vittorazi and Polini motors.  This Tornado 280 with three blade prop has noticeably more thrust allowing less running to get up to flying speed in low winds. I love it.

The TORNADO engine has proven to be less reliable than the Nitro motor design with the principal issue being the lower two head bolts, nearest the exhaust, regularly loosen and require retorquing after every 1-2 flights.  Our flying group has four (4) Tornados and all have experienced engine failure between 30-48 hrs.  The Nitro engines have not.

My TORNADO engine [48 hrs] failed two weeks ago at the 1h26m point in a flight.  AC Owner claimed the motor went lean, evidenced by blowby on piston head near lower bolts, and that it was my user fault -- thus refused warranty support.   I regularly retorque my head bolts and the max temp stayed within maximum published boundaries 440dF.

The upper piston ring failed and pieces caught on the exhaust port edge damaging the cylinder and gouging a chunk on the top edge of the piston itself.   [NOTE:  There is a RECALL notice for TORNADO motor piston and piston ring failures but I am told my rings were not the defective ones.]

AC Owner cited my failure to disassemble the motor at 25 hours to inspect the Decompression Port as evidence that I did not maintain the motor.  MY local team suggested doing this at 50 hours so I didn't  understand this to be necessary or grounds for voiding warranty support.

I have disproved the owner's claim there is no head bolt loosening problem by talking to the two largest schools in my country who use AC motors.  They confirm the Tornado bolt loosening problem but indicate they address it by retorquing the head bolts after each day's use.

There was no ownership of the Tornado head bolt problem by AC owner, only denial.

I still really like this paramotor and have ordered replacement parts including the new , lower compression, XC Head to complete my rebuild.  I've purchased a Nm torque wrench and will absolutely check the HEAD BOLT torque settings before each flight as part of my preflight.