Vittorazi Moster 185 Plus versus Factory?

[fuzzybabybunny]

I've been doing a lot of research on engines lately and I've decided that the Moster 185 seems to be the only clutched engine with the best weight / power ratio (Nitro 200 doesn't have a clutch and isn't available for separate purchase).

There are four levels of Moster 185:

Classic - 13.4kg, no clutch, standard materials

Silent - 13.6kg, no clutch, standard materials, quieter exhaust

Plus - 14.5kg, clutch, standard materials, quieter exhaust

Factory - 12.5kg, clutch, light materials, smaller exhaust - probably loudest? Apparently it's basically a completely different engine because they have to make the entire engine out of different materials to get to the light weight.

It seems that the Plus is the most popular model because it's got everything except for the light weight and it's only about ~$150 USD more than the Classic. The Factory, on the other hand, is *$1,500* USD more than the Classic.

Now, a 2kg weight saving is significant to me, especially because I plan to be traveling with this engine, so it could save on airline baggage fees and definitely if I need to ever *ship* the engine via FedEx or something.

I'm looking at the SkyMax Expedition and I really want a clutched model:

http://skymaxavia.ru/en/product/skymax-expedition-moster/

With the Moster 185 Factory it would only weigh 20kg ready to fly with harness and prop and everything. That's exciting.

With the Moster 185 Plus it would weigh 22kg ready to fly. Still not too shabby but my current Backbone with ROS 125 is 25kg and it feels like a hog. My friend's 20kg Miniplane is just beautiful in its light weight. 

So has anyone flown the Moster 185 Plus vs Factory?

Do you think it would be worth the extra money for the Factory? Are there are "gotchas" to this, like shorter life, lower durability, greater maintenance, etc?

[Icarus]

There's no power difference between the factory and plus.  

Unfortunately one of the most obvious features is also it's weak point.  The Titanium exhaust.

looks stunning, cracks between 15 and 20 hrs. 

This was replaced under warranty for me twice now, sadly the replacement looks like they've done nothing to fix what is clearly a problem (yet).

but,. As they've been free replacement - and take about 10m to do, well I'm still delighted. If I have to pay for one myself,then I may well put a regular steel pipe on it.  

I've now spoken with 4 people who've experienced the same problem with exhaust at the same hours of fly time.  (And none that haven't).

Still, I'd buy the same engine again.  Looks, power, weight, and aside from exhaust, totally reliable.  

Even if I have to put the regular steel pipe on it, I'll still have the billet engine case etc, and as they've taken good care of me on warranty, I've enjoyed every minute of that very light engine.

...But if you want to make the best of it - you should also consider a Scout carbon shaped home for it

Edited September 10, 2016 by Icarus

[fuzzybabybunny]

What exactly do you mean by a cracked exhaust? Where does it crack? And does a crack lead to any serious problems, such as the engine not being able to run due to insufficient back pressure from the exhaust for... something? And is this crack something you can just fill with some kind of putty or sealant?

[Dariuszk24]

moster are for people who like spend more time in service.

my old friend Jan Mlodyszewski R.I.P  had a looot problems exactly with exhaust

the title is "Moster I'll send you to the scarp yard"

if any one would like a very reliable PPG stay a way from moster.

many people would like to say standard problem with pull starter,cracking exhaust-very thin tin,pig to weld and cracking again close by,

some friends give me moster as service,where after taking off the piston you can see blue(burnt) piston pin and damage top end con rod bearing.of course replacement needed

belt usualy not outstanding 30h,and if you tie the belt to strong,engine carter likes to crack

light construction moster 185 always means trouble.

4:45 watch out in this moment spring exhaust crack and rip wing.

problems carry on

exhaust was 5 times welded

[Ivan]

I can only suggest that the problem with the exhaust is connected with the improper 2-stroke oil with longer burning time or higher burning temperature used. We mailed Vitorazzi an inquiry at some point if we could use Motul 800 instead of recommended Motul 710 and got the reply that we are NOT to use 800 as it could result in higher temperature in exhaust system. That is my personal experience as I do not know anybody with this problem and I do not pretend to know all about Moster. My Moster has about 100 hours on it... Ordinary one, not the Silent.

PS Factory version + Expedition weight of 20 kg will be the weight of the paramotor without the reserve (+ approx. 3 kg), and fuel (12 kg). Altogether 35 kg. I think it is not really such a huge difference to 36 kg with Classic. 

PPS A month ago I met Skymax team and discussed the Expedition. Good stuff. I plan to change my Skymax Compact to Expedition next year.

[admin (Simon W)]

Loving our Moster  Odd to hear people talking about it as an unreliable engine... It surely has to be one of the most reliable on the market!! 

Save your money and get a normal exhaust

SW

[fuzzybabybunny]

- When you say "normal" exhaust you mean the black one? Not the silver one and not the titanium one on the Factory, because those break?

- I've read around and it seems like a cracked exhaust can lead to some serious issues, namely if it cracked explosively it can kill the entire prop while you're in the air. This seems like a MAJOR safety issue.

- It seems like the Moster Factory has traded a lot of durability for light weight? Do people with the Moster Plus have any durability issues? 

- Has anyone ever needed to replace a major part on the Moster, like a cylinder or something? Someone mentioned that a Top 80 is cheap as chips to fix (new cylinder being 200 euro?). A Moster Factory, by virtue of it being so light and made in small quantities, would almost certainly cost 500+ euro for something like a cylinder.

[Russe11]

I have had a Moster for five years. It is a bit like triggers broom. There is not much of the original one left.

First i had a cracked exhausted. Then con rod broke causing major damage. Which was due to overheating but the plug looked good and i found no problems with the carb. After about 4 hours after fitting a new engine it overheated again. This time metal got in the plug so stopping the engine and preventing major damage  (only a piston). I did find dirt in the carb this time that was the likely cause.

As i was concerned about overheating i fitted a temp gauge and found when climbing it was running over the 250deg that Vittorazi state is the maximum. And even when cruising it was around 240deg. The plug suggests that the mixture was correct or even a bit rich.

I then fitted the air dam on top of the head. This dropped the temperature by an average of 40deg. I now have more confidence in the motor.

Not sure why it suffers from running hot maybe it is somthing to do with my 18stone lump. Or could it be that in some paramotors when the engine is mounted tight behind you the head is not getting the required air flow?

Be intersted to hear if others have had similar problems.

 

 

 

 

[admin (Simon W)]

114kg should be no problem for that engine with decent prop? 

Not sure about the engine positioning in the frame temp variation but I guess it would make some difference. 

Ours (the school one) which tends to get a good hammering.. is in the Parajet Zenith frame and I can only say that its been nothing but a pleasure to own fly and teach with. Were up to almost 30 hours on our machine now and I swear I have never even so much as even taken the plug out.... I suspect by the end of the busy season that the school machine will have around 45-50 hours on it (which at a guess would be a years flying at least for your average pilot.. So I will report back then  )

SW

[Russe11]

Thanks Simon

The engine has not got a power problem and has no problem with my lump but with trims out it is working hard. Saying that though i used to fly with full trims open and had no problems with engine. But as this was pushing the engine i started to fly at half trim so engine would not have to work so hard. After fitting temp sensors i realised that the throttle level required for half trim is actually the level the engine runs at the highest exaust temp. So my theory is that without the air dam enough air does not pass across the head add to this that i was cruising at a throttle level that produced the highest gas temp and i would have been doing this for long periods of time as much as 30mins.

To be honest i do not know why but the above seems to fit. One thing that i am sure is a problem is air flow as the air dam reduced head hemp by 40deg. Also there is no clear air inlet as my shoulder and harness are about 6 inches in front of the engine fins. I am not a aerodynamic expert but air behind a flat backed object passing through the air tends to be slow moving. Bit like tailgating a lorry.

Anyway it does seem like the air dam has done the job. I guess time will tell.

[fuzzybabybunny]

Guh, I'm wondering if I should just get a Top 80 and call it a day...

[fuzzybabybunny]

I talked to SkyMax Paramotors on Facebook and this is what they said:

"I asked my colleagues, they say that it didn't happen in Russia yet. We talked to Vittorazi, they said that they fixed the problem by choosing different welding points. That is all I know unfortunately."

How many years old are the motors that people have been having issues with? And is it the Plus, Factory, Silent, Classic?

[custom-vince]

On 10 September 2016 at 2:38 AM, fuzzybabybunny said:

I've been doing a lot of research on engines lately and I've decided that the Moster 185 seems to be the only clutched engine with the best weight / power ratio (Nitro 200 doesn't have a clutch and isn't available for separate purchase).

There are four levels of Moster 185:

Classic - 13.4kg, no clutch, standard materials

Silent - 13.6kg, no clutch, standard materials, quieter exhaust

Plus - 14.5kg, clutch, standard materials, quieter exhaust

Factory - 12.5kg, clutch, light materials, smaller exhaust - probably loudest? Apparently it's basically a completely different engine because they have to make the entire engine out of different materials to get to the light weight.

It seems that the Plus is the most popular model because it's got everything except for the light weight and it's only about ~$150 USD more than the Classic. The Factory, on the other hand, is *$1,500* USD more than the Classic.

Now, a 2kg weight saving is significant to me, especially because I plan to be traveling with this engine, so it could save on airline baggage fees and definitely if I need to ever *ship* the engine via FedEx or something.

I'm looking at the SkyMax Expedition and I really want a clutched model:

http://skymaxavia.ru/en/product/skymax-expedition-moster/

With the Moster 185 Factory it would only weigh 20kg ready to fly with harness and prop and everything. That's exciting.

With the Moster 185 Plus it would weigh 22kg ready to fly. Still not too shabby but my current Backbone with ROS 125 is 25kg and it feels like a hog. My friend's 20kg Miniplane is just beautiful in its light weight. 

So has anyone flown the Moster 185 Plus vs Factory?

Do you think it would be worth the extra money for the Factory? Are there are "gotchas" to this, like shorter life, lower durability, greater maintenance, etc?

I wouldn't believe what you read. Need to get some scales and check the weight for yourself. Its going to be light, but not quite that light.

Comparing with AC nitro (currently 18.4kg), the skymax is 1.5kg more in chassis design. Then the engines are 1kg more for factory or over 2.4kg more for classic. 22.3kg total possibly a bit more? Original AC moster was 22.6kg but then exhaust upgrades pushed it to 23kg.

As an example. T-rex (titanium frame) moster factory edition 12.5kg. complete paramotor is just over 24kg.

On the Skymax the alloy chassis does not look very resistant to a skid. I like aspects of the design. I picked it up at coupe care last year, had a chat & a good look. I like the machined alloy pieces but at the same time its many nuts and bolts to fall out. The sheet alloy in other machines tends to break after some hours, this design might be ok as the stress from harness is put thought the centre bar within the frame, yet engine vibration will be through the alloy sheet matrix.I think the skymax is more suited to an eos engine. less power, less vibration, less stress and lighter or electric.

for most people this is splitting hairs and they don't see the point in saving kg. Ask an owner of a light weight machine and they will say the opposite. For some it has transformed there flying and enjoyment of the sport. Once owned a 19kg machine, never want to fly anything heavier again. I used to fly Air Conception 130 at 17.9kg that machine is now 17.3kg.. I'm on a nitro now instead which still feels good at 19kg. I have a page of comparison spec and weight.. a work in progress. http://www.custom-air.co.uk/Custom_Air_Paramotors/Custom_Air_Conception_Model_Comparison.html

[Dariuszk24]

until you use your moster to normal steady flight it would say -ok

but if you start to really "enjoying" fly,trouble step up.

bad designed cylinder head(too short cylinder head radiator ribs-light engine element) and cylinder barrel fins are overheated

everything in name of light construction

any two stroke cylinder engine should not rich 220 C deg on normal CHT sensor (until you've got EGT)

because in real that temp are delayed ,and its a lot higher and its deadly for aluminium motor

its a shame to have power full motor, but you cannot use it.

[Ivan]

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 11:02, custom-vince said:

I wouldn't believe what you read. Need to get some scales

Skymax expedition is one-ring frame made of laser cut aluminum, carbon rods and titanium ring of specific oval profile. Weight of the frame is 4 kilo. I have seen it on a scales ))

 It is robust and works well with an active full throttle start. However, one ring frames (especially with carbon) are not so robust of course  as “full metal”.

The weight of 20 kg. is the real weight of the paramotor with harness and fuel tank, but without the reserve.

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 22:35, Dariuszk24 said:

its a shame to have power full motor, but you cannot use it.

 

With Moster it worth to use deflector. No matter how much you fly with full throttle, temperature will not exceed 200 degrees with right carb settings. And I reckon that temperature gauge is a must with any engine in our hobby. You will not find any plane without it ))

Edited September 19, 2016 by Ivan

[naesm]

On 11/09/2016 at 14:48, Dariuszk24 said:

moster are for people who like spend more time in service.

my old friend Jan Mlodyszewski R.I.P  had a looot problems exactly with exhaust

the title is "Moster I'll send you to the scarp yard"

if any one would like a very reliable PPG stay a way from moster.

many people would like to say standard problem with pull starter,cracking exhaust-very thin tin,pig to weld and cracking again close by,

some friends give me moster as service,where after taking off the piston you can see blue(burnt) piston pin and damage top end con rod bearing.of course replacement needed

belt usualy not outstanding 30h,and if you tie the belt to strong,engine carter likes to crack

light construction moster 185 always means trouble.

4:45 watch out in this moment spring exhaust crack and rip wing.

problems carry on

exhaust was 5 times welded

I know this is a super old thread but was curious, you don't like the Moster which seems to be the most popular and widely used, so what do you prefer or like for a motor? Thank you