The Club develops - *Important*

Hi Dean,

Have you read the entire thread? If you haven't give it a good read as it should give you a clear idea of what we are about.

The BHPA route is there for those that want to use it, many people who paramotor in the uk choose to remain independant and therefore either don't follow any form of syllabus or training system, or clandestinely use the BHPAs.

We want to define how we want to operate and more importantly, insure our flying.

I have picked up on (had sent to me) comments from other places which may reflect concerns people here hold. It might be productive to air them so that we collectively get a better idea of what is being proposed.

What are expressed below are sensible, mature and legitimate concerns and I hope to address them below. I hope the author will forgive me for using them without his consent, I know not from where they came but would love to hear from him. yossarian22@mac.com

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From another place.

"Now I am all for people looking to better themselves but there are elements to this that strike me as very concerning, particularly the proposed 'instructors course' and instructors insurance.

I must admit to having posted on this particular site on frequent occasions but this worries me. If I'm on my own with this then I'm prepared to pipe down but I feel it needs a wider viewpoint. What does everyone else think!

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just can't see why anyone would want yet another organisation involved with our sport. Now that the BHPA has (finally) got its act together on paramotor training, I see no reason why people would want to go to such an operation. I have become convinced that our sport should be properly licensed and instructors required to prove their competence on a regular basis and that all of this should be under the auspices of the BHPA. I also feel that quality independent instructors of proven worth should be incorporated into the scheme. I think that the BMAA has let its members and particularly its instructors down badly and effectively removed itself from contention.

Too many cowboys have set themselves up as instructors with little or no experience and I am informed that certain of these are not only uninsured but uninsurable after having been found to have lied on previous insurance applications. When we have people of the quality of Paul Mahoney doing the job the right way I feel that it is our duty to support them so that our sport can be seen to be raising its standards rather than looking for short cuts and easy bucks. I say all of this as someone that is effectively self trained and carries the scars and crap technique that go with such an approach."

Jim

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If I repeat myself from earlier posts forgive me but it becomes increasingly obvious that (understandably) people do tend to comment after reading a fraction of a thread.

Our move towards a more 'real world' organisation has been prompted by a desire to secure better insurance for our pilots and provide (for those who want it) a structure for their paramotoring operations.

I was surprised that individual cover was limited to 3rd party when I started paramotoring. When I enquired about more substantial cover it was clear that it was either not available for the duration of the flying year, or that it was going to be a one-off and cost a lot.

Likewise to have instruction taking part between unquantified and possibly untrained instructors seemed to me to be frankly bloody awful. That is no reflection on any individual but we cannot deny that teaching someone to operate a flying machine of any sort is a very serious matter, having someone who is essentially self taught handing on their misinterpretations and perhaps dubious habits to innocent third parties isn't going to do the sport any good whatever. At the top end of the independent field there are experts who know exactly what they are doing and do it extremely well. Their experience has grown from a sound knowledge base and early training with established organisations like the BHPA/BMAA. Interesting that they chose some time ago to go their own way as independents?

In response to questions from 'other places'.

After the PMC started making serious enquiries within the insurance industry the nature of the 'blockage' with regard to paramotor insurance became clear and it is explained earlier within the thread.

The PMC Manual and training system.

We have set up our insurance by writing our own manual and flying syllabus for one reason alone. We cannot simply copy the BHPA system and syllabus, apart from being unethical it would probably land the Club in court. If we are to generate an excellent insurance deal for PPG we MUST create our own systems.

Instructor Course 'Validity'

Same problem. If we are to promote our own safety based ethos and train instructors (the backbone of the club) we need to do it ourselves. That doesn't mean we re-invent the wheel, we draw on all the experience we have available to us and research to produce a great course. Again, copying the BHPA or the old BMAA course notes and syllabi would not work for us nor produce a satisfactory result. Our Panel Examiners, our own instructors and my training background will give us an excellent starting point. Feedback from the training system, our instructors and other sources will refine it. This is how instructor training courses have developed from the beginning of time.

Other independent pilots and instructors.

Where a group of independent pilots/instructors decide that they want to join the PMC and avail themselves of the insurance offering they will be welcome. Their experience will be assessed and measured and they will be issued on joining certification that equates to their experience. If they have not completed say our final qualifying cross country flights, they will fly them, have them verified and Bobs your uncle. Equivalence where parity exists, accommodation and adjustment where it doesn't.

Instructor status is a little more complex as we want to retain the integrity of the system. An instructor applying for a PMC-AI/FI qualification will be firstly treated with respect. His experience and knowledge will be assessed as will his flying ability. It may be necessary for him to complete the Core Instructor Skills module. This is not pass/fail, it relies on attendance and active participation. The whole process will be geared towards helping the instructor meet our standards. If he exceeds them when he applies by reputation and standing then he is in. Our Panel Examiners asses and have the final word in this.

This is a system for Paramotor Club (PMC) Members and branches. It is expressibly NOT an attempt to foist a system on the independent paramotoring community at large. We DO NOT want to administer paramotoring within the UK, we do not have the infrastructure, the staff nor the inclination to do so, nor do we believe our members want us to do that.

Yes, there is a kind of lever at work here, if you want quality insurance you need to fulfil our insurers requirements - that will involve becoming a member of the PMC. In practice that will mean that you undertake to fly to our 'best practice' standards and avoid the prohibitions that we have put in place. Your flying day and branch is run by you - finish.

'Best Practice standards' are NO MORE than safe flying with precautions laid in place and you are probably flying to them now. They are not restrictive and will provide a framework for a successful club operation - from a couple of guys flying from a farmers field to a larger organisation flying from a Paraport! What's more they are written down and everyone, from 'noob' to pundit can study them. You can even submit your bobs worth, if your point is a useful one with value to the community, we will incorporate it.

If you have questions or concerns ask away. Either Simon or myself will do the best we can to answer them. I am off across a horizon shortly so it won't be 'till tomorrow afternoon from me. Sorry about the long post, 'hope it hasn't bored you to death. TTFN

I think it is worth pointing out that the various insurance policies available to paramotor pilots at the moment are not the same. I'm going to summarise my understanding - I may be wrong. If you know otherwise then please point me in the right direction for the relevant documents.

With BHPA membership you get 3rd party insurance. If you land on someone's roof and knock the chimney off then the insurance will pay for the roof. You and your equipment are not covered.

Also listed on the BHPA web site are Airsports Insurance Bureaux Ltd who offer:

Travel insurance which can include paramotoring. This covers medical bills and "get you home" costs if you have an accident whilst on holiday outside the UK as well as 3rd party and limited equipment cover whilst you are on holiday

Equipment insurance which does include air sports but not whilst actually in use I think (can anyone confirm or deny this please?)

Outside the BHPA - OnRisk offer 3rd party and equipment cover for paramotoring but again, the equipment is not covered whilst flying. I'm pretty sure that OnRisk also offer travel insurance similar to Airsports Insurance Bureaux Ltd.

As I understand it the insurance cover that will be available to PMC members will at least cover:

3rd party risks

Equipment theft/damage whilst being stored and transported

Equipment damage whilst in use and personal accident whilst flying. This, I think, is a key differentiator and is only possible because of the Ops Manual etc.

There will also be options for travel medical expenses and equipment cover.

I've deliberately kept clear of the instructors' insurance because that is less relevant to most of us.

All,

Just to keep you informed about the latest developments regarding this subject, we have had a great response to this news. It has created a lot of work just replying to the e-mails asking about the insurance alone

There are a small number of people who seem to misunderstand what we are aiming for with this manual. I put this down to a lack of a willingness to understand by some and a commercially concerned reaction from others (another insurance 'product' with more cover explains that of course). I am sure that when we are live (which is 100% happening in quarter 1 09) there will be no genuine valid concerns.

I can tell you that the instructors course is just about full now, and that we are getting some very exciting sounding stuff back from the underwriters on a fairly regular basis.

The Paramotor Club is doing this, and with the support that we already have we already have a MUCH larger than expected number of people asking to be informed as soon as we are taking on members.

I cant wait to get on this instructors course! It sounds exciting...

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHOS CONTACTING US ABOUT THIS!! :D Gives me a boost of energy every morning.

SW

With the greatest respect to all concerned:

Just a quick statement for those out there who seem disinclined to read what was 'leaked' earlier about our new system due to launch in the new Year.

Reminder: It is a PMC system for PMC members, you don't have to use it, just do what you always did and be what you want to be. Again, it is coming. Yes it is around 90% complete. No, it isn't a conspiracy or a 'big secret', we merely need time to get the content written up and properly edited to ensure that the manual doesn't need a stack of amendments a month after it comes out.

Why do we chose not to identify our Panel Examiners? - a courtesy to try and prevent people bothering them with questions they have agreed not to answer. When the process is complete....

We will launch and publicise when it suits us.

Life is getting very, very busy.

Guys,

These details are circulating within the Full Members area.

If we want to ensure that the Club is properly represented it would be organisationally prudent to have 'Specialist Members' that can be an informed point of contact about PMC matters. Any Full Member is eligible to put their name forward for these positions, they attract benefits as well as responsibilities to at least partly compensate for effort invested.

Each member will ideally have another member who takes an interest and assists with tasks. If willing he may form an understudy to the 'Member'.

Each Member will have their banner included within their signature so that we can all identify them.

Radio Member - Slim (Stuart Morris) - Confirmed

Regulation & Airspace Member- free

Flight Safety Member- free

Legal Member - free

Engineering Member- AlaninSaudi (Alan Hunter) - Confirmed

Technical Publications - Norman Rhodes Confirmed

Alan Hunter has volunteered to become our Engineering Member. Details in the Full Members area.

Thanks Alan and congratulations!

Flight Safety Member

This slot sounds more daunting than it is though it will have its moments.

Curiosity and interest in the whole field of ground and flight safety are the only essential ingredient. You don't need to be an industry safety expert, just interested enough to get involved and learn as you go along. Any engineering, analytical or investigative experience is likely to contribute significantly to the role.

You will work closely with the Engineering Member where his experience will add a valuable perspective. We have a contact within the Civil Aviation safety system that may be able to help with specialist advice and training.

Primary areas of concern:

• Ground Safety - PMC
  Flight Safety - PMC
  Analysing incidents and accidents from published data and reports to extract value.
  Liaison with the BHPA opposite number/Reporting System on behalf of the PMC - fostering a professional relationship with them and the AAIB where appropriate.
  Monitoring the industry and reporting news and trends to members.
  Developing and propagating the safety culture within the PMC by any available means.

Set you thinking?

Regulations and Airspace Member

Regulations

The regulatory environment within UK changes slowly and incrementaly with time. PPG is an unregulated sport but it may not always remain so. We need to stay abreast of developments, understand fully the current framework that we operate within and have a man on the ground who is able to discuss issues with the authorities should changes come across the horizon.

Members need to be able to talk to someone who has their finger on the issues and can advise from a platform of knowledge.

Airspace

Our airspace becomes busier every year, most stakeholders who uses the sky have a representative to listen to the jungle drums and be available for a pow-wow should we face changes that might affect our freedoms. The BHPA have been active in this area and done some fine work over the years, we need to be able to make our voice heard, participate and assist. Mandatory transponder introduction in some airspace blocks, exclusion for those not equipped and further airspace reservations and restrictions are changes that in view now. We need someone to research and fully understand the issues, perhaps get to know the personalities involved and be interested enough to keep us all up to date with developments.

This job just needs someone who is fascinated by the questions and keen to get involved. We have the resources to facilitate learning and involvement. The RAF and Civil systems are keen to engage at a grass roots level where they can see benefit from that effort. We have seen a little of this from the RAF Lynham visit, there is more to come.

This job is as much about education as it is about representation. We want our guys to be among the most informed and aware PPG pilots out there. It's amazing how much knowledge dispels fear, how peace of mind is a pre-requisite to relaxation into the sport.

Keith G is a qualified accident insurance investigator.

I will talk to him about the Flight Safety Officer position.

SW

Notes for those interested - Why the change?

I guess anyone can form a club in the accepted sense of the word, get three guys together and presto! They can decide for themselves how they run things and if British will probably immediately decide who their prejudice insists they exclude.

With Membury forming the new PMC home there is a strong desire to ensure that the club complies with the very letter of the law as any responsible organisation should - it needs to be tight and correct for the sake of its members. Simon is very aware of his responsibilities and has gone through the required hoops to formally create the a more structured and compliant organisation and has asked for and got volunteer members to form the essential committee to run the club's business and meet exacting accounting processes.

Change is always met with suspicion and questions, (keep asking the questions) but please recognise that things need to be different for good reason. Transparency has its benefits for those who put their trust and a sprinkling of their money into an organisation they wish to support and hopefully will come to value highly.

In three years the PMC has come a long way, where it goes looking ahead will now be decided by its members, the committee and those prepared to put their backs to the cart.

Good Luck guys.

One to miss physically but handy to catch audibly.

Hi all

Having just read all the posts on the PMC training /insurance I really have only one question. Based on the fact that we don't need insurance or any qualification to fly (I have BMAA Foot Launch and On Risk insurance Europe/Compaction).Why is there no a priority to secure a flying field as this is what we need. I see in one of the later posts that Membury was mentioned as the home of the PMC, Having been told by Simon that this was an exclusive site for his training on the new years day and since seen that it was offered for part of the deal on the Hours/hire deal, I would like to know if this is going to be available to all members. Again having just seen my membership money debited from my PayPal I would like to see a dedicated field for all members even if the costs are shared.

With idiots born every day insurance or regulation will not stop people from doing stupid things. But I think that with all the good intensions in the world the more we propose being like driving with fully com insurance and a structural system the more likely we are going to be regulated with compulsory insurance. The few (thankfully) people who have died or have been seriously injured were mostly people at the top of the sport pushing the limits. The average flyer (not idiots) suffers minor (not life threatening) injuries. And normally has to regain his pride and a few parts to get back in the air.

I know this will not be welcomed to the PMC efforts that have been working hard on the new system but I would like to know if there are commercial aspects behind the insurance and will commission be paid. If so will the money be go to the PMC and have the accounts available.

Sorry to be so cynicle but times are not what they used to be, I know that there are proberly some commercial aspect and that time and effort needs to be paid for and rewarded. I have no issue with this as like other I would not be in this sport if I could not afford it. I know that some of the senior members have (has Simon put it) done this has a life style, again I have no problem with this also, I would just like to think that the PMC club members would benefit from the proposals.

I guess i will be getting a cancelled membership now

Russel

Hi Russel,

Unfortunately the Membury club is currently full to capacity as Simon has to meet strict requirements laid down by the land owner, from memory to fly there you need to be:

A) a member of the Membury club,

B) a member of the PPG100 club (still taking membership)

C) one of Simons students.

D) a PMC instructor.

If you can secure a field near you then local pilots will be more than happy to chip in to share it, and if it's just for the odd weekend/evening fly then trust me it will be a hell of a lot easier to manage than a busy training field.

Hi Russell,

I would love for nothing more than to get a field or two up and down the UK That was in fact one of my early ambitions for the PMC.

To Clarify, the PMC is a registered not for profit company. Accounts due and ready for next months submission to the IR.

The paid Members V the non paid members is the problem here..

If I had a couple of hundred grand I could and would buy a couple of fields for PMC use for sure, and I am sure that loads of people would pay to use it. but.......

It's a chicken egg thing, our low paid v non paid ratio of membership (currently 41 paid members per year) makes it very difficult to think of things likt land.

I am currently thinking of better ways to benefit the paid members and the online shop discount (being the main one) will be online again before the end of August with paid member discounts on everything you can think of for your paramotor. So if your a paid member you will get an automatic discount every time you buy something.

This was used by well over half of the members last year / season and many of those got well over there membership fee back.

Also, it should very much be considered supporting the growth of the PMC, I know thats a week call but it is very true! It would not be here without you and it will be better the more members we have.

Ref insurance: there is no comercial link what so ever.

We are working on making sure that you get more than your membership fee back each year and I hope that you will be happier at the end of this one

I dont think we will be able to realise both our dreams and get a field though

SW

Thanks for the replies,

I am surprised that only 41 people subscribe to the PMC club membership with the amount of activity on the web site. (to the none members) none payers) put your hands in your pockets and support the PMC you should be embarrassed to log on to the web site, and to the PMC members We will at least go down in history as nearly extinct payers with pride.

Keep the insurance scheme updated to members only with a premium to none members.

In fact the none member (parasites) should run the gauntlet or at least bow to members.

That’s my bitching done.

Enjoy the week end (with all your money none payers)

Russel