Paramania Revolution Wing

Can someone just tell me with the Revolution Wing.............

Do you guys just use the trimmers to gain speed or do you just use the speed bar....................or both?

Which is preferable speed bar or trimmers?

And when applying either of the above, which do you set/adjust first, the speed bar or the trimmers?

I fly actively with my Nemo but the time has come to get on my Revolution.

Thankyou chappies..........

Mike (about to venture out with his Revolution Wing)

Never apply the speedbar on slow trim (on any reflex wing)

So....

Flying along on slow trim... want to go faster..

Trimmers out, then speed bar on

Want to slow down again, speedbar off, then trimmers in.

Read the manual as well, if you dont have one you can download it from the Paramania website.

Your going to love it!

SW

Simon,

That all makes sense. Thankyou.

I do have the manual as I bought the wing new, but its always good to hear someone else say it and then you know you have interpreted the information in the manual correctly.

I take it that on full reflex its then a case of tip steering and weight shift which should be easy on my PAP?

My understanding is brake use is therefore limited to the slow trim setting only and not advised when at 'full chat'?

Mike

Never apply the speedbar on slow trim (on any reflex wing)

Interesting Simon as the manual for the ReAction says 'The speed system can be safely used at all trimmer settings'

EDIT: If the wing behaves as a 'normal' paraglider, i.e. non-reflex when the trimmers are in then isn't this equivalent to a PG with speed system, of which there are thousands of examples

I haven't used it on slow trim so am rather interested in the concensus on this.

Cheers,

Alan

I have copied this from another thread. There are some cool pictures explaining this but I cant seem to find them. Anyone?

Start: ParamotorMike

"Hi, its something to do with the change of Centre of Gravity. Basically the C of G is moved forward in reflex mode, so the A's and B's are more loaded, this gives great stability and putting on the speed bar gives max speed and reflex effect.

In fully un-reflex (trimmers pulled in) slowest setting, the C of G is moved back toward the middle of the wing and putting the speed bar on then might cause a loss of pressure at the leading edge."

End.

SW

For me it's more of a personal thing...

I do think that if it makes the risk of a collapse higer then why do it?

If you want to go faster, its simpler to put the trimmers out first, then if you want to go faster still, apply the bar.

SW

Why go in to overdrive in first gear

Change in to top first then use overdrive

Pete b

If your not in to cars please ignor.

Simon, Pete,

I quite agree as I think it is a more relaxing way to fly more quickly by just letting the trimmers out, rather than having to push your feet out on the bar.

Didn't some cars with overdrive only engage overdrive when in top gear?

Quick question: Which paramotorists aren't petrolheads

Cheers,

Alan

Thanks for the comments/replies and input.

Very much appreciated and and it all makes logical sense.

When I return from holiday I will get that wing out and up into the sky!!

e the weather will be waiting here for me?

Can some one ensur

Mike

Can someone just tell me with the Revolution Wing.............

Do you guys just use the trimmers to gain speed or do you just use the speed bar....................or both?

Which is preferable speed bar or trimmers?

And when applying either of the above, which do you set/adjust first, the speed bar or the trimmers?

I fly actively with my Nemo but the time has come to get on my Revolution.

Thankyou chappies..........

Mike (about to venture out with his Revolution Wing)

Hi Mike.

after preparing / practicing on my revolution for the Nats this year I have realised that the revolution has a big speed range on the trimmers alone. Although the speed bar does increase the speed again, it has a very large increase in fuel burn for the relatively small increase in speed. Therefore for economy / distance I don't believe the speed bar is worth using on the revolution, however still usefull if you get caught out down wind because the wind speed increased or was faster than expected.

As for slow trim with speed bar I will copy my experience of that from a recent thread:

"Whilst heading off I forgot to take the trimmers off and put speedbar on. Immediately I felt a rythmic jurking from the left wing tip which I intitially thought was something happening to the motor. When I looked up I could see the left tip leading edge surging on the point of tucking. Eeeeeek I gently released the speedbar and put trimmers fast again. "

I still fly with a speed bar because most of the time economy and distance isn't an issue for me because I have adapted a 20ltr fuel tank for my FB Sportix and pushing the speed bar out on a long flight / up wind leg just makes me feel better as it makes me feel that I am making more progress. It keeps my legs working to.

Happy landings.

Witters,

Just noticed this reply and have followed your fuel tank mod in a different thread.

Having more and more flights under my belt, I am also venturing further a field. I have noticed a disappointing fuel consumption circa 6.5/7.5 litres/hour.

My PAP tends to rev at its high end (about 7-8000rpm) to help me sustain level flight, I do still have another 2000rpm to take me to just under 10000rpm but then I am thrashing the nuts off it!!!!!!

When I am not using the trimmers I loft about and get perhaps just under 5-5.5lit/hr.

I weight 16.5 stone and I am wondering whether I need a bigger wing?

I am logging everything and checking fuel consumption.

I am just a little concerned because I am going on the French trip and its got me thinking I might not even manage one and half hours per tank?

MIke

I must suggest to many that their comparison of speedbar as the addition to top end is counter intuitive to what the bar has been for in my flying so far. It's been discussed as an overdrive, top gear, gravy on top merely because that's how it gets used most of the time?

For me it's the turbo button. An elastic band of temporary speed I can then release as required.

The revo manual reads:

"The bar increases the speed by approximately 30%. Unlike most wings there is little or no loss of stability,"

Some say they do not see 30%? Pulleys touching?

Every conventional wing out there with a speed system becomes increasingly more unstable toward complete application of speedbar. Reflex profiles adding to that stability is great but it's not the only way and doesn't necessarily mean it will all fold up like a discarded tent flinging thou from on high.

Why would one challenge the unpublished law?

1) You're can't spare the height by dumping trimmers

2) You're on an economy task

3) You're doing a cloverleaf

4) Getting blown back in ridge lift

5) Your hands are busy already

6) omfg there's no time

There are other examples all which can be equally easily attacked and/or challenged.

Which is more efficient, trimmers or bar?

That is:

Speed x (top speed on slow trim and full bar) = speed x on whatever trimmer setting gives that same speed

Which has the lower sink rate for no throttle setting?

I'm not saying all this to start a forum fire, rather to help others consider that there are a few ways to do a lot of things with your wing, including flying it differently and getting much different feedback. (Some may say the ragged edge, others edge of envelope).

SIV teaches you about you, you wing and how they can come to interact differently, but you don't need to go to an SIV course to mix it up. You can steer with the bar just like trimmers and weightshift and brakes. Just tools.

Please play with altitude.

Hi all

Ozone don't mention anything in their manual (i think) about not using the speed bar without first letting out trimmers? i think, and would have to check, but i'm sure the roadster has certification with full speed bar.

The Revo manual says:

"Although the speed bar can be used with confidence throughout the whole range of the trim settings, it is obviously most effective

when used with the trims off I.e. on the fast setting."

The Fusion manual is similar, but when I hear/read folks talk about speedbar use at slow trims (or full slow per CEN testing where it was recorded as stable) everyone gasps like I just crapped on their shoes.

Anyone hear anything about MCJ's work on getting testing adjusted to encompass reflex profiles?

Hi all,

I've been reading the above threads with interest.

From what I understand, but please correct me if I'm wrong, reflex gliders basically have three primary trim setting;

a) Closed trimmers

b) Neutral

c) Open trimmers

I've done lots of reading up on this from various magazines and online articles etc and my understanding of this is that when a reflex glider has the trimmers fully closed there is a slight undercamber of the wing section i.e. the opposite of reflex and in neutral trim position the wing section would be similar aerofoil to that of a normal paraglider i.e. no undercamber or reflex.

On a conventional paraglider you don't use the brakes while the speed bar is on, instead you weightshift. Applying brakes while on speed bar would have a similar effect to applying speedbar while trims are fully closed on a reflex glider. Not only are you loosing pressure on the leading edge but also reducing the angle of attack and increasing the risk of a collapse.

As I said please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is close to the reason as speed bar on and brakes applied/trimmers closed are two forces acting against each other creating a very unstable aerofoil.

Justin

Sound reasoning Justin, and I'd be inclined to say you have nailed the gist of it.

One could certainly say that a reflex glider is more stable with application of speedbar at only fastest trims than any other setting (at least for a fusion/revo). I doubt anyone would suggest otherwise.

The three settings you cite are the extremes and average, and while the actual range is infinite in between I'm assuming you picked the three for clarity to boil it down for public consumption. I'm not going to use "undercamber" here as I'm not sure it's applicable although I think I know what you're getting at.

I've noticed when free flying the fusion that the full slow setting has a lower sink rate then if I set it to Neutral and fly a la conventional via min sink. Regardless of what I've tried, the full slow is more efficient. Emulating this with riser bias has the same effect (of course). This is no shock to those who watch the trimmers adjust the profile proportionally - flying neutral with brake application destroys part of the profile (C's) and makes for messy, inefficient airflow. This also has it's place however, as the sink rate is higher then full slow and can be instantly managed via brake pressure in trade for some lift. It is particularly effective in elevator-like descents in strong (more than your loaded stall speed) ridge lift for toplandings using the "flapping" double brake pump technique to destroy lift - with the added inefficiency and sink rate of a Neutrally trimmed glider (or faster trim settings pending wind strength).

One poster noted some luffing on his wing when he inadvertently applied bar on full slow, and it makes sense that the center of pressure moves back the chord on full slow trims. Bar application and AOA decrease also increases pressure throughout with speed gain, but it's reasonable to expect instability at some point as you will approach a point where the leading edge drops below the required angle for pressurization and frontal is imminent.

With that said, I'm speaking of conventional wings as I have not, nor seen a post from anyone who has tried it either under power or glide. certification testing notwithstanding. Full slow trims and speedbar. Why? To see if you can. Play high though please.

NO, different manufacturers use reflex differently at the slower end of the trim range. It is not possible to make the assumptions that Justin is making unless you specify the wing in question. There are dealers and instructors out there that are not aware of this. The owners manual tells you how to fly the wing at different trim settings but they are not always suggesting the same technique from wing to wing because all reflex wings are not the same.

Hi Fanman,

As I did say "correct me if I'm wrong" I was purely giving a basic, general example from all the information I've picked up from reading various article etc.

Ok so different manufacturers use reflex in different ways maybe, I don't know exactly how so any input would be appreciated by me and others I'm sure. I'm always happy to learn the technical stuff involved in our sport as I believe it helps our flying when you know more on how the wing works and why it does what it does.

I don't dispute your input and believe what you're saying. I am basing this as a general example of a reflex aerofoil as the overall aerodynamics of how a reflex aerofoil works can't be miles apart from each other?

Thanks for your input,

Justin

Fanman: What is your "NO" for?

Justin was clear he was asking, and I tried to be clear pointing to the fusion and revo as examples. I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with as they were all generalizations.

While the full slow trim setting (with full bar) may vary in amount and even in whether it's in reflex or not, wouldn't you agree that it would still be less stable then full fast with bar for any reflex wing? Anyone who flies a reflex wing would suggest stability builds with it's application via faster trims. That is, after all the point right?

I do wish your mention of a manual telling one how to fly at different trims were true. I've been sponging up reflex detail as I see it because the manual is sparse on much of what the wings can do and how "best" to approach it. As noted prior, the manual doesn't always agree, and in fact some cases directly conflicts with, what the trimmer diagrams themselves say. The truth is only exposed by those who know by experience what will happen.

I think that's what Justin is after, I know I am.

Fanman,

I've looked at your post again and misread the first part wrong sorry. I missed your point about reflex wings at the slower trim range and agree with you that different manufacturers use different methods of trimming, therefore you would have to specify the wing in question but I stand by what I say about fully closed trim with "certain gliders" does give the wing a slight under cambered aerofoil which I believe is the main cause regarding the danger of using speedbar in this situation.

I should have said on certain models and/or manufacturers and rightly so as you said, read the user manual as it would clearly state this danger.

I remember seeing a good example of a diagram of a wing somewhere showing the shape of a wing with different trim settings which clearly shows what I was trying to explain. If I can find it I will attach it on here.

t_andrews,

You're quite right I was using the three extremes of a)Trims closed, b)Neutral, c)Trims open to give clarity and regarding "undercamber" it was the only term I could think of to explain my point but glad you know what I mean

Justin

...Justin was clear he was asking, and I tried to be clear pointing to the fusion and revo as examples. I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with as they were all generalizations...

These are the 'generalisations' that are misleading newcomers (and experienced people) in this sport. Justin stated "I've done lots of reading up on this from various magazines and online articles etc and my understanding of this is that when a reflex glider has the trimmers fully closed there is a slight undercamber of the wing section i.e. the opposite of reflex and in neutral trim position the wing section would be similar aerofoil to that of a normal paraglider i.e. no undercamber or reflex". You agreed with this but 'undercamber' is not present in wings exhibiting reflex profiles right down to slow trim. Certain designers use this while others don't so generalisations dumping reflex wings into one tidy bag are not helpful.

By the way I have no issue with the comments about use of bar. My issue is with lack of understanding in the low speed flight range.

...I do wish your mention of a manual telling one how to fly at different trims were true...

Fusion manual page 8 tells you to start flying the wing with trim at "take off position and slower, basically below the neutral trim position" then "try flying with a small amount of brake". Then at the bottom of the page it says "With the trim fully released, the wing takes on more solid characteristics... With more speed, brake pressures increase as does the range of movement prior to the stall point. Turns and rate of roll are linked in a linear fashion. However at full speed WTS system or simply weight shift becomes more effective than the bakes. As a conventional paragliding pilot it may take time to gain the confidence in the wing to “let go” of the brakes, but once you do it’s a whole other world!". The manual is telling you to fly with brake pressure below the neutral trim system and hands off when the wing has taken on its reflex profile. Not the easiest to interpret from the book but it is there. Because these things are so deeply hidden it is hardly surprising that so many people are struggling to understand what to do.

I have only just got round to reading the article in the last paramotor mag about reflex wings and come away absolutely horrified how 4 people responsible for wing design can have such different ideas on how reflex works. I intend to email them individually because I think it's time we started clarifying the terminolgy used and also get some explanations for some very wild comments. MCJ was quite right to start with a blank sheet of paper when bringing reflex to the paramotoring world. Personally I wish ITV and Ozone would open their eyes and realise that most paramotor pilots do not originate from paragliding and aren't necessarily after the traits of their free flying wings. Paramania and Dudek both show that the desirable qualities of reflex can be incorporated fully into wings that are perfectly capable of soaring.

I would submit that anyone new to the sport is forced to think in generalizations in order to form their very own theories and truths to guide them in their own path to experience and practical knowledge. I do try to keep sufficient information in my posts to ensure I don't intentionally mislead, so when my words get pulled from context and some key sentences of them ignored, well, it's a bit of a burn.

I do appreciate anyone's passion that the truth is exposed, but caution them that unbridled dives for it are often driven by tunnel vision. Sometimes I just feel like arguing, but do resist it when it doesn't serve the audience, or my limited credibility as just another forum guy.

This was originally a thread on the revolution, and while it has diverged as many do I still consider it in context as long as the title is up there. So, while generalizations are made and cited as generalizations, that be the extent of it. Justin must not feel guilt for the actions of others

If a lone voice from the mist to the major manufacturers makes the communicator feel better so be it, but like certification testing of (the reflex characteristics in) REFLEX gliders I don't expect them to line up their theory, nomenclature or presentations for anyone but themselves. My best wishes to anyone on that quest.

Thanks for the pointer to page 8 mate. I've been there and been was disappointed. As I've said before, the manual shoots you a snapshot, but has so much missing (and conflicting with trimmers) that it begs what to really believe. That and there are several ways to do one thing with a revo/fusion in part due to the infinite variation on profile. Good times.

Side note: I've heard of MCJ doing reflex seminars for his merchants, and begged for a video copy that I just know is out there somewhere. I expect that it would round out the manual with theory from the creator of the tech I fly and invite, nay applaud a link to any such video from any part of the world. Anyone?

I have been on the MCJ seminar and it is a great way to understand Reflex fully.

I will ask him if he is coming to the UK with his talks.

SW

All (UK members)

I have just spoken to Mike C J and he is more than happy to come over for a weekend and give the full Reflex talk / demo to the PMC.

I will start this as a separate thread but just a heads up

SW

Do you suppose someone in the class with a herocam on their helmet would stick out?

Thanks for chasing it Simon.